CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast , the hosts discuss the recent contract extension of Evan Mobley and his potential as a power forward. The conversation transitions to a ranking of the top power forwards in Cavs franchise history and NBA history. More Cavs coverage An inside look at Cavs decision to give Evan Mobley a maximum contract – Terry Pluto Cavs new head coach’s experience could save the two big man lineup in Cleveland What about Darius Garland’s comments on trade rumors? – Terry’s Talkin’ Cavs Takeaways: Evan Mobley signed a contract extension with the Cleveland Cavaliers, solidifying his position as a key player for the team’s future .
Mobley’s defensive skills and offensive potential make him a valuable asset for the Cavaliers. The top power forwards in Cavaliers history include Larry Nance Sr., Kevin Love, Shawn Kemp, John ‘Hot Rod’ Williams, and others.
In NBA history, notable power forwards include Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, and Charles Barkley. Giannis Antetokounmpo has the potential to become one of the best power forwards of all time, but his ranking will depend on his future accomplishments and longevity in the league. The presence of Jarrett Allen alongside Evan Mobley on the Cleveland Cavaliers may limit Mobley’s offensive growth and productivity.
The Cavs may need to explore the possibility of splitting up Allen and Mobley to maximize their offensive potential. The offensive system of the Cavs should be adjusted to cater to the strengths and limitations of their personnel, particularly Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings. Ethan Sands What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast.
I’m joined by your favorite beat reporter, Chris Fidor. Chris, how was your weekend, my guy? Chris (00:22.343) it was great, man.
It was a really good weekend, spent outdoors for most of it. Went to Vermillion to see my mom yesterday, took Elliot to the beach. That was awesome.
Took Elliot to get ice cream. And then today was more of a me day. I told you that my golf game had been in shambles because I just have not been able to golf as much as I would want to.
I think at this point I’ve had two rounds in the state of Ohio and two in the state of Florida so far over the last calendar year and that’s just not good enough for me. So I got the itch. The British Open was this week as you know, we talked about that a little bit.
So I decided today that I was going to go to the driving range and I was going to work on my stuff, change the stance, change the takeaway, change the grip, just mess with my whole swing. in an environment where whatever my shot is, it just doesn’t matter because I’m not playing a competitive round of golf. And that was wonderful.
That was exactly what I needed. So it took me a day at the driving range. I was probably there for about two hours or so just smacking a bucket of balls.
But my swing is back. The old me is back and I’m ready for however long, what is it about two months? two months before training camp for me to get my butt back to the golf course repeatedly, multiple times a week. So that is my plan for the rest of the summer.
The Donovan Mitchell thing is done. The Evan Mobley thing is done. Obviously the Cavs still have to figure out what they’re going to do with Isaac Kikoro restricted free agency.
Is some team going to make him an offer sheet? Is he just going to play on the qualifying offer? Are the Cavs going work out a sign and trade with some other team to enhance the roster that kind of way. But a majority of the Cavs off season business has been taken care of. And that means that all of the vacation that I’ve had saved up all of that time with the company that I’ve had saved up is going to be basically August and September.
That’s when my off season begins. And that’s when I’m taken to the golf course in Northeast Ohio. Let’s go.
Ethan Sands (02:42.498) I was about to say, was like, it’s almost time for us to get a break, it seems like, but that’s amazing when you talk about getting to have a little U time at the golf course, get to have a little practice, as they say, when it comes to golf swing and doing all those things. Again, not my area of expertise.
I just swing a softball or baseball bat depending on the day or go to the basketball gym, depending on what’s going on in my world. Chris (03:10.099) How was your weekend? Ethan Sands (03:11.
136) or I guess you could ask. I mean, it was good. I got to play in my last two regular season games of my softball league with the Lincoln Park pub team.
We are going to the playoffs. I have to miss the final regular season game of the season because I’m going to a conference next week. It’s going to be a fun family reunion of NABJ, the National Association of Black Journalists.
in Chicago, but it’s gonna be a lot of fun. And I just found out the dates for the playoffs for my softball team. And they said that the championship week, the semi -finals and championship game day, which is gonna be because they double them up, do double headers on those games, is the same day I’m set to leave for my cruise at the end of August.
Chris (03:41.739) Maybe. Ethan Sands (04:08.
842) I may or may not, depending on how well we do in the playoffs, be changing my flight. Because the cruise takes off on Sunday, and if I can get a later flight on Saturday, we’re still bingo -bango, still good. But I think it’s gonna be definitely an interesting situation, and I’m glad that we both have some plans going on when it comes to the quote unquote off season, especially with.
Basically the news of Isaac Okoro trying to figure out what’s gonna happen with that. And then if the Cavs decide to add a power forward, small forward, center, backup guy. Which we kind of think will happen along with the Isaac Okoro thing if he does not resign or accept the qualifying offer with the Cavs.
But that’s all good and well. But today I want to talk about Chris (04:44.404) Mm -hmm.
Ethan Sands (05:03.63) What happened most recently? You mentioned it. Evan Mobley signed an extension with the Cleveland Cavaliers, a rookie max scale contract that could be worth up to five years, $269 million.
It’s a big one, Chris. He based on the contract that he signed originally, that’s obviously the contract with incentives big baked in, I believe it’s $224 million currently and That’s only second to a yearly earnings to Donovan Mitchell on this team. And I know the Cavs were talking about Darius Garland was the franchise highest paid player, yada, yada, yada.
Well, you got three contenders now for whoever you want to talk about making money and needing to pay and put their money where their mouth is. But Evan This guy is being paid not only for his defensive prowess that we have seen since he entered into the NBA, but his offensive game that could be bolstered by the acquisition of now head coach Kenny Atkinson. And Chris, I have an article coming out tomorrow for cleveland .
com talking about how Kenny Atkinson used the offense and the bigs that are both non -shooting of Kavan Looney and Draymond Green to be successful with the Golden State Warriors and how that could potentially transfer to the Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Chris, first and foremost, what were your initial thoughts and reaction to the Evan Mobley deal that we always knew was going to take Chris (06:42.515) Yeah, it was just a matter of time.
my reaction to it was, it was very, very straightforward. Evan Mobley wanted to get it done. There was motivation from his side and then there was motivation from the Cavs.
The Cavs were obviously hopeful that it was going to get done. you never want to sit there and be fully confident when you’re talking about people, when you’re talking about motivations and stuff like that, but. The Cavs were always going to give him the Rookie Scale Max extension and Evan Mobley was always going to take the Rookie Scale Max extension when it was eventually offered to him.
Cade Cunningham, Scotty Barnes, Franz Wagner, now Evan Mobley. It was a no brainer for this organization. Since he was drafted third overall in 2021, he’s been called the one.
He’s been called a unicorn. He’s been called a transcendent player. this organization has talked about Evan Mobley as one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The way that this rebuild kind of took a different direction the minute that they got him third overall. And it wasn’t just him, obviously, Jared Allen, Darius Garland, and then Donovan Mitchell coming in in the trade as well. The view of this organization, the feeling inside this organization first changed when Evan Mobley was drafted third overall, because they said, we’ve got somebody, we’ve got somebody to build this thing around.
We’ve got somebody to make a core piece. We’ve got somebody who is going to be a cornerstone of what we become in the future. And multiple assistant coaches who are no longer here because they were on the JB Bicker staff, talked Another banner is not going to be hung in Cleveland until Evan Mobley is the best player in this organization.
Not Donovan Mitchell, not Darius Garland, not Jared Allen, Evan Mobley because of the various things that he can do at both ends of the floor. So nothing of the way that the Cavs felt about Evan since drafting him third overall a couple of years ago, none of that changed. If anything, Chris (08:55.
017) This just solidifies how much they believe in his future. And this isn’t only about paying him for what he can become. A big part of that is, but it’s also rewarding him for what he has done already to this point.
You know, he’s already one of the premier defenders in the entire NBA. Make a list of the top five defensive player of the year candidates going into next year. He’s in the top five.
There’s no doubt. He is one of the premier defenders in the league. It’s his third year in the NBA going into his fourth year now He’s finished third in defensive player of the year.
He’s first team all defense He finished runner -up to Scotty Barnes for rookie of the year And that doesn’t even talk about the evolution that he is starting to make on the offensive end of the floor Which you saw in the Boston series Eastern Conference semi -finals best team in the NBA, eventual NBA champions. And Evan Mobley in year three without Donovan Mitchell, without Jared Allen, was one of the best players in that series. More than 20 points per game, better than 60 % from the field, making an impact on the defensive end of the floor.
Now, the Cavs weren’t really competitive in that series. They lost it four games to one, but that doesn’t take away from the way that Evan played in that particular series, the way that he guarded in the Orlando series, all of the things that he’s already done throughout the course of his career. The things that he has done to turn himself into an elite individual and team defender.
Those things are built in to this contract extension. And the other layer to that, Ethan, is where the Cavs expect him to go and the kind of player that they expect him to be. They expect an All -Star.
They expect an All -NBA player. They expect an MVP candidate. That’s what they have expected since drafting him third overall a couple of years ago.
And that hasn’t changed. If anything, that feeling has been more emboldened. Ethan Sands (11:06.
294) Yeah, and I mentioned the article that I have coming for cleveland .com tomorrow about the partnership of Jared Allen and Evan Mobley as two non -shooting bigs. Well, Evan Mobley could kind of fix that whole situation if he takes a jump offensively with his shot that we know he’s been working on since the middle of last season when he was injured, had arthroscopic surgery on his knee, and then came back to a team that was using the three -point shot to a higher volume than they have used all season.
He said, well, if I want to get some minutes, if I want to be able to have the same role, be able to be productive, be able to be a contributing asset to this team on multiple aspects on the offensive floor, I need to improve my shooting. And everybody was able to take that note. And he did that coming into his second half of the season.
And as you mentioned, Chris, that game against the boss in Celtics, it was like, hold on now, okay, is this what we’re gonna get to see? And it was more so him being able to not only make shots from beyond the arc, but create his own shot, be able to get into the interior and face up and also go to and post moves that he’s contributed. Like, it’s not just building on what he didn’t have before, but also growing the game that he had cultivated. from since he’s been in the league and beforehand.
So speaking of where we see Evan Mobley going, how far we see him getting in his career, the MVP caliber player, the leading this team to Eastern Conference Finals, NBA Finals, that’s where they want to go. And to do that, Chris, I feel like I’ve been leaving you out of the fun conversations that we’ve been having on this podcast, right? Like most of the time, it’s me and Jimmy chopping it up, giving our rankings of players, teams, organizations, whatever you wanna call it in the NBA. But today, Ethan Sands (18:12.
846) Evan Mobley is a guy who we see going into his future and trying to be a Cavalier great, trying to be an NBA great. That’s the expectation now as we talked about from this Cavs organization because of the money that they just ushered him, right? So today, because he’s a power forward right now, we’re going to stick with that position. Chris, who were your top 10 Cavalier power forwards of all? And I’m gonna let you have a second to do your research because I know I’m kind of putting you on the spot but How close do you I think Evan Moby right now obviously hasn’t won a championship as most of these Cavaliers power forwards have and like How close do you think top 20 top 25 top 15? Chris (19:06.
201) Well, so first I have a question. What position is LeBron? Ethan Sands (19:12.152) Smile Chris (19:13.
069) He doesn’t count at power forward even though he played certain lineups at power forward. We’re gonna put him to small forward only. Okay.
Ethan Sands (19:19.278) So yes, small forward only. that’s funny because when I was doing my research for this topic, they got players like Tristan Thompson as a power forward.
Like, no, he’s not a power forward, he’s a center. They did have LeBron James listed on this list that I’m looking at for reference, but no, we are talking about true power forward. So like guys, like Kevin Love, Chris (19:28.
964) Ha ha ha ha! Yeah, no. Chris (19:44.749) Okay.
So I have another question because I want to make sure that we understand the parameters of this conversation. are we only talking about their career with the calves or are we talking about everything that they’ve accomplished, including the time that they spent with the calves? Ethan Sands (20:09.186) think because we are getting, because obviously Evan Mowgli wants to be at the of the NBA, we are going to get into guys that played in the NBA, the top Power Forwards in the league.
But because not a lot of players played as a Power Forward for the Cavs, I think if they played a season, a full season with the Cavs, that should be a fair player for Power Forwards for the Cavs franchise. Chris (20:29.248) Mmm.
Ethan Sands (20:36.76) So I’ll have you a little more wiggle room when it comes to Chris (20:40.623) don’t know that I like that.
I don’t know that I like that because I think it needs to be just how they performed while with the Cavs. Because if it’s all encompassing, then Kevin Love is going to be at the top of the list, but his best seasons statistically and from a production standpoint all came before he got to the Cavs when he was with the Minnesota Timberwolves. And we can do this with a few other guys, right? Nate Thurmond.
Nate Thurmond is retired at Quicken Loans Arena. His number is retired, but his best seasons were not with the Cavs. His best seasons came with the San Francisco slash Golden State Warriors.
So it’s almost like cheating, I feel like. So I think we need to keep it, from my perspective, I think we need to keep it to what did they do while they were with the Cavs. Is that fair? All right.
All right. So then I think number one is Larry Nance, Larry Nance senior, all world defender, tons of bounce number retired already. I give him a slight edge over Kevin Love.
because like I said, the best seasons of Kevin Love came in Minnesota, not in Cleveland. And that doesn’t take away what he did in Cleveland. won a championship here.
he was Ethan Sands (21:41.122) Fine by me, let’s do it. Chris (22:05.
559) really really good. He completed their big three. They would not have won a championship without him.
But he just didn’t have the same kinds of opportunities to be that all NBA player that he was in Minnesota when he got here to Cleveland. So I give a slight edge to Larry Nance Sr. I’ll have him number one.
Kevin Love two. Sean Kemp before he ate himself out of the league would be number three. John Hot Rod Williams would be number four.
Then it kind of gets thin, right? You start talking about Tyrone Hill, Carlos Boozer, Antoine Chamison. For the few years that he was here in Cleveland and he played really, really well. Drew Gooden is probably in that mix.
My guy Jim Jones is definitely in that mix. Unfortunately, he dealt with a bunch of injuries throughout the course of his career, but I think you toss him in there. Chris Mills, Roy Hinson.
So for me, like the top five are pretty much set. And I think you can probably debate what order you wanna put them in. And then the cluster between five and 10 is just that.
It’s a cluster. And it’s like, what do you value most? And what do you feel like separates one guy over the other? Because Cavs history, power forward. It gets thin very, very Ethan Sands (23:38.
71) I agree, I agree with you. like your list. I gotta give shout outs to Hot Rod Williams and Carlos Boozer.
Those are like guys that I feel like even though they are memorable careers, they get lost when it comes to their position and also like how good they were when it comes to this Cavs organization. I obviously have Sean Kemp, Larry Nance, Kevin Love up there in my top three. For the Cavs power forward ranking so I dare I very much agree with what you had going on there It was just so funny doing research on these and picking up different names and obviously reading about Antoine Jameson and All of these guys are like you feel like huh? How how good were the Cavs they just didn’t they just didn’t get over the hump like Chris (24:19.
168) Right? Ethan Sands (24:30.83) It’s really interesting to think about the different lineups that were constructed, the different people that passed through, and then you think about how many people LeBron James has played against in his NBA career. I don’t know what the number is now, but I thought it was like 20 % of the players that played in the NBA of all time or whatever.
That’s just nuts to me. But now, now we get into a bigger range of players that I feel like we can definitely go a little bit more in depth on because of the careers that were had, the arguments that could be placed on these players. But I feel like the top 10 for the NBA All -Time Power Forward list is pretty set.
So, Chris, instead I’m gonna give you my top five for the Power Forward list to start and we can keep going if there’s an argument or if you think there’s people that get snubbed or you need to get added to the list. Chris (25:05.454) Mm -hmm.
Chris (25:19.919) Okay. Chris (25:29.
559) All Ethan Sands (25:31.586) So number one, obviously, Tim Duncan. It’s easy.
Easy as cake, right? Then the second one is Kevin Garnett for me, right? Everybody wants to argue Karl Malone and, I mean, yes. Karl Malone’s got a lot of things going on. I don’t really want to talk about Karl Malone a whole lot in this podcast.
So we’re gonna move on. He should be two or three, depending on whatever y ‘all got going on, but I’m Chris (25:33.859) Yeah.
Chris (25:49.911) I’m sick Chris (25:59.033) Kevin Gardner? Two? Ethan Sands (26:01.
87) For me cuz I give I give him brownie points for not getting in trouble while he was in the NBA as much You know, so Carl Malone gets a duck duck down a couple points for me. Anyway Then you go ahead and you get Dirk Nowitzki in there obviously and then I Really wish he would have won a championship because I feel like this list would be a lot different but Charles Barkley as well and Chris (26:08.899) Ha ha ha! Ethan Sands (26:31.
244) You get the new guy, Inyana Sano de Kumpo, who feels like he is coming up in the power forward rankings of all time already. The MVPs, the championship, all of those different things. So Chris, first, what do you think of the list? And then, where do you think we go from Chris (26:52.
761) think you need to rip it up and start over. Kevin Garnett too. Come on, man.
No. No. And I like KG.
He definitely revolutionized the game in terms of his ability to shoot from the outside, play defense the way that he did at his size, bounce between center and power forward. So there are so many different things that he brought to the NBA and I’m not going to diminish him. Again, this the list of the best of all time.
So you have to have find some certain things that are going to separate them. And it feels so wrong because you start, you know, picking holes in games or finding weaknesses or something like that, so that you can rank one higher than the other. And it becomes really, really difficult.
But Carl Malone is the second best power forward of all time. Two time MVP, 14 time all NBA, 14 time all star. it’s, it’s, there’s nothing that you can point to within his resume that, that is missing.
he was, yeah, no doubt. Absolutely. I mean, his list of achievements is ridiculous.
What is he second all time on the scoring list? Third all time on the scoring list, something like that. yeah, I mean, I get. Ethan Sands (28:04.
212) On the basketball court as well. I’m just cutting and I would say on the basketball court. Chris (28:21.
891) Kevin Garnett, great player in his own right. like Dirk, great player. Just like Charles Barkley, great player.
Elvin Hayes, great player. Somebody else who probably is right there borderline top five. But on the court, Karl Malone, I definitely think second best power forward of all time.
I think the way that he impacted the game, the longevity that he had, the consistency that he had. just slightly better and more impactful than KG for me. On the court, Ethan Sands (28:58.
638) I’m not gonna disagree with you. Like I said when I was giving my list I deducted points from things going on outside of the court. Okay, so Obviously Karl Malone is the second best power forward of all time.
Okay, I said it Don’t ever make me say it again, but KG on my list is number two. Okay, they’re moving Chris (29:04.75) I Chris (29:09.
87) Ha ha ha. Chris (29:21.977) Charles Barkley, definitely in that mix.
I definitely think he’s got to be top five despite the gigantic hole on his resume with the no ring. I think when you get into titles and stuff like that and you start talking about a guy and whether they win a championship, you have to acknowledge the fact that that is a team thing. And I’m not going to hold it against Charles Barkley that the team around him just wasn’t good enough.
the organization that he played for wasn’t good enough and he ran into some of the most dominant teams of the last 30, 40 years in the NBA. You know what I mean? Like it’s almost a situation of what could have been for the Cavs if they didn’t run into the dynastic Golden State Warriors. The time that LeBron came back to Cleveland just so happened to coincide with one of the best teams ever assembled also being there.
So for Charles Barkley to play in the era that he did and have to compete against some of those teams that he had to compete against, the fact that Phoenix didn’t win a championship, the fact that Philadelphia didn’t win a championship, I’m not going to hold that against him. I can acknowledge all the great things that he did and all of the ways that he impacted the game. And the consistency that he played with and the longevity that he had.
I can acknowledge all of those things and I can appreciate all of those things and I can judge all those things independent of his team success. So I think when you’re talking about rings that usually to me is more of like a tiebreaker when you have guys that are very, very close and you’re looking for some kind of separator. But, Apart from that, I think his strength, his agility, his skill, his inside -outside game, his rebounding capabilities, the physicality that he played with, the way that he elevated, not to a championship, but he elevated multiple franchises.
That speaks to me. And, you know, it is unfortunate for him because he continues to get made fun Chris (31:46.189) by his cohorts inside the NBA that he doesn’t have a championship ring.
But I can understand his greatness and I can appreciate his greatness. And I can say even though he doesn’t have that, he still is one of the top five power forwards of all Ethan Sands (32:06.982) I I remember, I think it might have been recently watching Charles Barkley talk about his experience on the Dream Team and just like, I, this is easy.
This is easy, right? Because he’s not playing with bums. He’s playing with guys that actually draws attention to him, like in other of themselves, like Michael Jordan, like Magic Johnson. Like you’re like, well, all of these guys got to look at those players on defense.
Chris (32:14.006) Mm. Chris (32:20.
559) I’m Chris (32:29.539) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (32:35.
628) Here I am in the paint doing my normal thing. Just give me the ball and I get to go up against somebody that is undermatched or isn’t looking at me as heavily as they are Michael Jordan. So it’s really interesting to talk about Charles Barkley and his trajectory, his career, and obviously that big hold on his resume.
But Chris, I want to get your thoughts on Giannis and his potential to be one of the best par forwards of all time. because we understand like his resume is growing. He’s now got a running mate that we feel like can be with him for the next couple of years.
Obviously they have to go through one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference, if not the NBA and the Boston Celtics to get where they want to go. That kind of coincides with the conversation we were just having about running into like teams that are just are better than you to get to where you want. then when it comes to Chris (33:06.
444) Ethan Sands (33:33.846) those kinds of accomplishments. Obviously we know he’s a caliber of MVP candidate, went through a lot of injuries this past season, but how close do you think he is to cracking the top five when it comes to the power forward all -timeless? Chris (33:34.
799) Mm -hmm. Chris (33:48.655) Yeah, I mean, I think he’s extremely close.
Um, the difference is he just, he hasn’t been around long enough yet to compile a resume yet that matches some of the other guys in the top five. mean, Dirk played for what? 20 years? So he has 14 all stars on his resume. He has the championship.
He has the MVP trophy. He has a lot of the accolades that Giannis does. But he did it at that level for a longer time because he got an opportunity to do that.
So we’re talking about the finished product of Dirk and his resume completed, done, over with. Same thing with KG, same thing with Karl Malone, same thing with Charles Barkley, same thing with Tim Duncan. Like we’ve already seen what they have done throughout their career.
It’s already established. It’s set. It can’t change.
The fact that Giannis is already borderline top five and there’s still so much more time for that resume to become enhanced. mean, it’s scary to think about, right? He’s going to be, if he stays healthy, if he stays on this trajectory, there’s no reason to think that he can’t be a double digit all -star. There’s no reason to think that he can’t compete for another MVP, compete for another championship.
So it’s so hard when you’re talking about a non -finished resume versus a guy who has a finished resume. Um, and you can’t just assume that Yanis is going to continue all of that. Maybe he hits a wall at 30.
Maybe he just gets a bunch of injuries as his career goes on. I don’t know. I can’t predict the future.
You don’t think it’s going to happen. The trajectory that he’s on points to a guy who is very, very close to the top five already. and you know should go down when it’s all said and done as a top five power forward in league history but again you can’t just assume that that’s going to happen because there are a bunch of variables that can still play out whereas there’s nothing that’s going to change for Dirk there’s nothing that’s going to change for any of these other guys in front of him so to me that gives him a lot of upside that gives him a lot more potential Chris (36:12.
825) to continue to enhance that resume, but it also means that there’s a variable that exists that could prevent him from getting to that point too. We can’t just ignore Ethan Sands (36:27.854) I mean yeah, hit on it.
mean Tim Duncan and I believe it was Karl Malone. Both had 19 years of experience in the NBA. While Dirk Nowinski and Kevin Garnett had 21 years, both of them.
So I believe Giannis is in his 10th year or entering his 11th season now. So that’ll mean he’ll have at least eight more years to get to Chris (36:37.903) a Chris (36:49.
612) Mm -hmm. Chris (36:57.154) Good.
Ethan Sands (36:57.208) Potentially, right? Because he’s a family man. He could end his career early.
Who knows? Because he’s already feeling he’s accomplished. He’s already one of the top. But knowing what Giannis has talked about in the past, he wants to be one of the best of all time, not one of the best power forwards of all time.
And that kind of circles back to the conversation in Short Chris. We will get into the best teams of all time. That’ll be a different conversation we have.
I feel like Chris (37:11.169) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (37:26.
222) talked about that briefly on a couple occasions, but bringing it back to Evan Mobley and what he’s trying to get to. Like, he pictures himself as one of the best in Cav’s history. He wants to get there.
He wants to be more than just a unicorn named. Like, he’s not, he doesn’t want to change his nickname to an alien like Victor Wiminyama. He wants to write his own story.
He’s a quiet, kill -mandered personnel. He wants to get after it, be tenacious, and do everything he can. to get to that level, to get to the level of these guys that we’ve talked about and he’s entering what, year four, year five? Like this is what we’re talking about when it comes to a youngster who is coming up and is ready to take on to the next stages of his career.
Obviously we compared him to the contracts that we’ve seen recently with people in his St. Draft class, Scotty Barnes, Franz Wagner, Kate Cunningham, but he wants to stand out and to do Chris (38:12.185) Hmm.
Ethan Sands (38:25.098) As much as he does on the defensive end, taking his game to the next level offensively is going to be the next step. And Chris, I think this is what I wanted to ask you to round out this podcast.
Do you think that he’s going to be better suited to do that as he is right now with Jared Allen by his side? Because I understand that even if his offensive game grows, even if his offensive game doesn’t grow, especially with Kenny Atkinson there, that they can possibly work something out, but if his offensive game grows to the next level, then it’s like, okay, Allen is a great defensive running mate for Evan Mobley. They know how to run that stitch together. Would Jared Allen be a person that you could see working with Evan Mobley long Chris (39:12.
815) think there are a couple of things here, Ethan. I think we talked a little bit about Kevin Love and the Minnesota years of Kevin Love. That was a 26 and 12 guy.
He was the clear cut alpha on that roster, right? For a majority of Kevin Garnett’s career, he was the clear cut alpha. He was the go -to option offensively. You can say the same thing about Giannis.
You can say the same thing about Charles Barkley. can say the same thing about Karl Malone. Right? It’s just, it’s hard when it comes to Evan because Donovan Mitchell is going to take 20 shots a game.
Donovan Mitchell is going to handle a majority of the usage. That kind of stuff, well, close to 20 shots a game. I’m kind of exaggerating a little bit, but you know what I’m saying.
He, he’s not going to be number one in the offensive hierarchy as long as he plays alongside Donovan Mitchell. And I think that’s going to prevent him potentially from being as productive as maybe people would want from a guy who is making what Evan is going to be making. I also think it may prevent him from being as productive as some of the other guys in his draft class, just because productivity is a byproduct of opportunity.
And the opportunities that Evan is going to get here in Cleveland, while they could increase with Kenny Atkinson and he has all these different ideas of ways to use Evan offensively, enhances offensive game, get him more involved offensively. I think there’s a ceiling to what he can become in this kind of offensive setup. There are two ball dominant guards here in Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland.
They’re going Occupy a lot of the possessions. They’re going to take a lot of the shots. They’re gonna swallow up a lot of the offensive usage the production I just think is going to be hard for Evan to be consistently around that 20 point per game 22 point per game mark something along those lines and You touched on the other layer to this whole thing and it is Jared Allen Chris (41:33.
167) I’m not saying that the Cavs need to go out and trade Jared Allen just for something, right? If the opportunity presents itself, the right opportunity presents itself. I do think it’s something that the Cavs need to explore because I am still of the belief that Evan Mobley and Jared Allen stylistically will continue to get in each other’s way. And look, it’s a 48 minute basketball game.
They don’t have to play a whole bunch of minutes together. There’s a way to stagger them. maybe it’s Jared Allen coming out at the three minute mark of the first quarter or the five minute mark of the first quarter.
However, Kenny Atkinson wants to do it. There is a way throughout the course of games throughout the course of a season to split them up enough to give Jared a little bit of freedom, Evan, a little bit of freedom, and give them opportunities, to work in, the comfort areas. where they can be maximized.
But at the same time, like, I do think there are overlapping skill sets here between those two guys offensively. And I just don’t think that Evan is going to consistently become the kind of offensive player that so many people want him to become if he’s going to share the floor with Jared Allen as much as he does. And I just don’t think the Cavs, Ethan, are going to become the offensive team that they want to become if Jared Allen and Evan Mobley are going to be out there together.
I just don’t think it’s as workable of an offensive front court as it needs to be. Not in today’s era. And they bring a lot together defensively.
They make the Cavs very, very unique with their rim protection, with their size. It certainly gives them an advantage on the defensive end of floor. It’s not a coincidence that they’ve been a top 10 defense every single season that Evan Mobley and Jared Allen have been together.
And it’s not a coincidence that they’ve been a top 10 defense every year that Evan Mobley has been in the NBA. But I just think there are limitations that come with those guys individually, offensively. And I think there are limitations that come with this team offensively.
Chris (43:56.397) with them together. And I think eventually the Cavs are going to have to make a decision.
I think they’re going to have to commit to Evan Mobley as the full time center, the way that San Antonio did with Victor Wemba Nyama and allow him to go through the growing pains that could come with playing full time center. The physical mismatches that could come with playing full time center. But I just think where Evan is still most comfortable.
when you’re talking about how he’s used on the floor and the space that he wants to take up on the floor, it’s the same place where Jared Allen is most comfortable. And I just don’t see that changing coming into this year. I don’t think Evan’s going to be a good enough perimeter player.
I don’t think he’s going to be a good enough three point shooter. I don’t think he’s going to believe that the three point shot is better than some of these other offensive things that he can do. and the things that make him comfortable playing near the dunker spot, playing on the short roll, playing face up, playing off the elbows, getting the ball on the move.
Things along those lines become harder for him when Jared is also on the floor, clogging up the paint and playing in the same spots where Evan wants Ethan Sands (45:19.086) Chris, I think it’s really important what you’ve said about speaking more so about splitting them up, right? Because that’s where they’re most comfortable when they’re able to do their own thing, when they’re able to roam the paint on offense and on defense. I think that if the only way that Jared Allen is able to stay on this team long -term is if the Cavs can find a way where they no longer have to say that they need to split them Chris (45:46.
455) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (45:47.
118) to them be able to reach their potentials. If they are able to be on the floor at the same time and not create hindrances for one another on the offensive end of the ball, when it comes to cluttering the paint, when it comes to running offensive sets, that is when the Cavs are gonna say, okay, we can plausibly think about keeping Jared Allen around. And I’ve said it already on this podcast and I’m gonna say it again.
It’s a contract year for Jared Allen coming into 2024. 2025 season, but it’s also a year where he finds out where he stands with this organization and if Kenny Atkinson can work his magic once again and show that this can become a team with two non -shooting bigs or if this can be a competitive team with Evan Mobley growing as someone who can space the floor as a three -pointer. So there’s really three scenarios Chris, either Evan Mobley grows as a three -point shooter and proves everybody wrong because I don’t think there’s a lot of people on this planet that believe that Evan Mobley is gonna go from what he was last year to where he needs to be as a three -point shooter.
Two, Kenny Atkinson brings the magic from the Warriors with Kevon Looney and Draymond Green and implements it into the Cavs organization, into the Cavs roster, into the Cavs sets and schemes offensively where they’re running DHOs spreading the floor and being able to split people up so that they have to pay attention to Jared Allen and Evan Mobley even if he’s not going to be a comparable shooter to other players. And I think it’s possible. And the third one, Jared Allen’s got to get loose and do his thing offensively or just get the boot.
Chris (47:35.043) Well, here’s the other thing. I get the whole Kavan -Loonie and Draymond -Garine thing and it’s a good comparison and it’s something that Kenny Atkinson talked about in his introductory press conference.
It’s something that the Cavs talked to Kenny Atkinson about during his coaching interviews. They wanted to get his ideas and he brought that up. He brought up Draymond and he brought up Looney.
They don’t have Steph Curry and Klay Thompson. Okay? Like, I get it. They have Darius Garland, they have Donovan Mitchell.
Both of them very, very good players. Donovan Mitchell, MVP candidate. Donovan Mitchell, multi -time All -Star.
Donovan Mitchell, one of the 15 best players in the entire NBA. But he’s not a shooter like Clay. He’s not the caliber of shooter that Clay is, right? There are different things that you can get away with when it comes to roster construction, when it comes to play style, when you have Clay and Steph just Creating havoc everywhere they go.
Being as comfortable as they are off the ball. Running their split actions. All of those different things.
And this doesn’t take away from Donovan and Darius. Because I’m really, really interested to see how Kenny Atkinson is going to use those guys together, maximize them together. But you’re able to work a little bit easier with the limitations of Dramond and Looney.
When you have Stephen Clay The Cavs can’t run the same Looney Draymond stuff because they don’t have the same personnel to do it. A lot of times what you do offensively, the system that you use, the play calls that you have, the sets that you want to run, that’s often times dictated by the personnel that you have. And stylistically, Darius Garland and Steph Curry are not the same.
Chris (49:38.829) And stylistically, Donovan Mitchell and Klay Thompson are not the same. So I think the idea of trying to do some of those things, some of those Draymond stuff with either Jared Allen or Evan Moe, it’s good.
I like that. You want to have those kinds of ideas. You want to be able to look at Evan like that, where he can make plays from the elbow, where he can be an initiator.
creator, not just a finisher. You like that you feel confident enough that you can tap into some of those Draymond skills with Evan, with Jarrett in certain cases. And that’s great.
It’s a great idea. And Kenny Atkinson should want to try those things. Just don’t know that it’s going to be as productive with this cluster of personnel that the Cavs Ethan Sands (50:37.
494) Yeah, I mean, I was not comparing anybody on the Cavs to Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson, but I do think that the attention that they draw is similar when it comes to how dynamic defenses understand Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland to be with the ball in their hands and needing to have eyes on them. But the comparison that I do think is similar, and this is me stretching it a whole, whole lot, but Sam Merrill. a guy that we’ve seen that’s garnered a lot of attention and has kind of mimicked his game after Steph Curry when it comes to running around and going around screens and things of that nature and I Obviously you’ll have to read my article tomorrow because I had different examples and put different things into place when it comes to sets that could be taken from that roster and used with different players, but Sam Merrill and Max Struc for more show the shooters that I was using in my examples than Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell.
Donovan and Darius were more so the drivers in more situations where it would open up positioning for them to get into the lane when it came to that. But I completely understand what you’re saying. It’s absolutely accurate that nobody on the Cavs is Steph or Clay level when it comes to how much they are able to shoot from the three point range at a capacity and a volume.
Chris (52:02.253) You know who the top two players in the NBA playoffs were last year in terms of pick and roll frequency? Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell in terms of pick -and -roll frequency as the ball handler more so than Tyrese Halliburton more so than Jalen Brunson more so than Jamal Murray who runs a beautiful two -man game with Jokic more so than anybody else Kyrie Irving, Luka Donjic like the way that Darius Garland is most comfortable the way that Donovan Mitchell is most comfortable ball in their hands, run, pick and roll stuff. That’s what’s made Donovan so great.
He had Rudy as his dance partner in Utah, became a multi -time all -star. Got Jared Allen, Evan Mobley here in Cleveland has played arguably the best basketball in his career. But if you start changing that too much, and I’m not saying that there isn’t room to adjust the offense, make it more dynamic, make it more creative.
diversify the attack a little bit. There’s room to take some of those pick and roll opportunities away from Darius and Donovan. and, run some stuff through Evan at the elbow, run more DHO stuff, run more off ball stuff, run more cuts, split actions, some of that kind of stuff.
There probably is room for that to happen based on the personnel that the caps have. All I’m saying is understand. That doing that offensively, those kinds of possessions offensively, that means, that means going away at points from the Darius Garland pick and roll or the Donovan Mitchell pick and roll.
The thing that makes, you know, both of those guys pretty special. The thing that gave the Cavs offense a fighting chance at various points throughout the course of the season. So I just think I think it’s really, really simple to say, do something different offensively.
Okay. But the thing that Darius does great in the thing that Donovan does great in the thing that the calves potentially can do great is run pick and roll stuff because both of those guys are elite pick and roll players. Ethan Sands (54:47.
99) And I think the last thing I’m gonna say on this topic, because I think it’s important to refer to what you said. And the offense that the Warriors ran when Kenny Atkinson first got to the Warriors was re -screening. A huge aspect of that was because of Kavon Looney and Draymond Green and how good they were at re -screening.
I think if you wanna use the pick and roll example, You use Jared Allen, who we know is really, really, really elite when it comes to the pick and roll and having him re -screen for guys like Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell and free up things in the post for not only Evan Mobley, but also for Darius and Donovan. I think that’s another example where that could work. But don’t want to give too much, Chris.
I feel like we went kind of in detail on that and something I was not expecting to do today, but Chris (55:22.446) Anyway. Ethan Sands (55:44.
942) We’ll leave the rest of the quote on quote suspense for the articles and things that we’ll talk about next time. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of The Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris and me by subscribing to Subtext.
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