CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast , the hosts address concerns and questions from Cavs subtext subscribers while giving insight from sources around the NBA and inside the Cavs organization. More Cavs coverage Cavs officially sign Evan Mobley to maximum rookie contract extension LeBron James gets prestigious honor for Team USA at Paris Olympics Who are the top five power forwards in Cavs history? Wine and Gold Talk podcast Takeaways: General manager Kobe Altman has done a commendable job in assembling a competitive roster despite salary cap limitations. Darius Garland is focused on improving his strength and physicality to better handle the demands of an 82-game season and playoff run.
The Cavs may consider adding depth through bargain free agent signings, with players like Doug McDermott and Justin Holiday being potential options. Jaylon Tyson, a rookie, may have a role in the Cavs’ lineup, but it is unlikely that he will directly replace Isaac Okoro’s defensive capabilities if the Cavs can’t keep Okoro. The Cavs are unlikely to bring Luke Travers to the NBA this season.
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The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. I’m joined by your favorite beat reporter, Chris Fedor. Chris, how is your week going so far, big Chris (00:27.
37) First day of the week, got to the golf course tonight, played with my buddy in his weekly league, a little two -man match, and we did well. I didn’t play great, I wouldn’t say, no birdies tonight, unfortunately, one of my first rounds of the year, but made a whole bunch of pars and came very close to breaking 40, which for nine holes, nine holes, we didn’t play 18, only nine holes, an evening round of nine. came very close to breaking 40.
So I’ll take that given how much rust I still have to shake off the golf game. How about Ethan Sands (01:05.172) It’s been great.
It’s been great. And that makes a lot more sense now, while you were getting some extra work in before one of your first rounds in a long time. So I’m glad to hear that your practice paid off, because as we say, practice makes perfect.
But speaking of guys getting some practice in, Chris, you know I stay tuned to almost all of the social media platforms when it comes to the Cavs organization. And Chris (01:18.836) That’s right.
Chris (01:27.982) See Ethan Sands (01:31.486) Earlier today, I saw Darius Garland repost or actually post a picture of a kind of stat sheet from what seemed like a workout facility that had one -on -one and Tristan Thompson with five wins on it.
And he was like, that’s what kind of time you’re on today? And I was like, hmm, okay. Chris (01:52.926) Ha ha ha Ethan Sands (01:55.
394) Tristan Thompson, I don’t know who the other names on the list were obviously, there is John that was smart and just left it at the first name on the list being Tristan in five games, one, it seemed like just tally marks, but it feels like it kind of felt like to me a little endorsement for Tristan Thompson kind of the same way Donovan Mitchell did with Jared Allen earlier this season. Very cryptic this off season, Chris, very, very cryptic, but I mean, we know how much. There is Garland and Tristan Thompson hung out last season how much they’ve been kind of like running mates when it comes to being able to work out together and find each other as Like big brother little brother kind of situation Especially when we were in the playoff, so this does not surprise me one bit I just wanted to point it out because obviously you come here to get information on the Cavs, but Chris we are gonna have some fun today.
We went to our subtexters and I hit them And as we have always said, that subtext is the place where you can have your voice heard as a community member for the Cavs. This is the Cavs community. We want you to subscribe, get all the inside the information that you can from me and Chris, but also have your takes heard.
So today, my take to the Cavs fandom and the Cavs subtext subscribers was, if you want a wrench, if you want a wrench. I’ll read them on the pod and we’ll get into them if there is no room for discussion or if there is a little room for discussion. We preach that we wanna make this a pod that you feel like you can have your voices heard.
So we’re gonna do that today. Chris, I know this is something that you’ve been waiting for for a while to hear the subtext is ran on length. So let’s get into it.
How excited are you for Chris (03:43.823) Let’s go. I’m curious what they’re ranting about at this point in time.
There are a lot of good things that happened throughout the course of this off season for the Cavs. They re -signed Donovan Mitchell. They re -signed Evan Mobley.
Both guys got long -term contract extension. So the two primary things that the Cavs came into this off season wanting to accomplish, locking in those franchise pillars for the foreseeable future. They did that.
The other thing that they did Ethan Sands (03:48.471) We’ll Chris (04:11.) they fired JP Bickerstaff and they went with Kenny Atkinson.
seemed like the fans wanted that to be the case as well. By all accounts, Kenny has, assembled a really quality coaching staff. People around the NBA took note of that.
People around the NBA that were in Vegas were talking about the quality of staff that Kenny was able to put together here in Cleveland. And I’m told that there are still a few more minor moves that he still wants to make when it comes to that coaching staff. So I just don’t know what there is to rant about at this point in time when it comes to the Cavs.
It seems like to me, the moves that they have made, although it’s been a relatively sleepy off season, the moves that they have made have been really, really potentially impactful. Ethan Sands (04:56.258) I could not agree more, but there’s always something to be said.
So I’m going to just read through this. Sometimes I pick and choose the ones that we talk about today. All of them are gonna get touched.
So we’re gonna start from the very bottom, from the first person that sent a text over at 5 .08 PM. And this is how we’re gonna start.
No name, no nothing, just quote. I’m literally cancelling my season tickets on Thursday because of the Cavs front office being content with this roster. And that is a way to start.
Okay, alright. Chris (05:35.838) can phrase it though, like, I don’t think it’s fair to sit here and say that the cabs are content with the roster.
I think it’s fair to say that the cabs believe in this roster. They like the things that they have done. I think they’re just working within the parameters of the current, collective bargaining agreement and their salary cab situation.
If you ask the cabs right now, Hey, do you think you could make an upgrade at whatever position? They would say, yeah. But there are limitations to what we can do. Think about what they did last offseason.
They spent on Max Struce, they spent on George Niang, they went out, they brought in Ty Jerome, and they’ve committed a whole bunch of money into the future to both Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell. There’s only so much that you can do when it comes to tweaking the roster, making additions. they were always going to be restricted and limited in terms of the kind of activity that they were going to have throughout the course of this off season.
So I don’t think it’s a situation, Ethan, where they’re just content and they’re like, hey, we made the Eastern Conference semifinals. All right, there’s nothing that we can do to improve this team. This team is perfect.
Every single spot on this roster is taken up. No, it’s not that situation, but this off season, given all of the limitations that they have in terms of the salary cap, in terms of the first apron, it was always going to be an off season focused on their own as opposed to a whole bunch of external activity, unless there was a unique opportunity that presented itself. The other thing that I want to point out is that this is only the first transaction season, right? There’s the next wave of transaction season and then when the Cavs get into the season, there is time for them potentially to use some of their expiring contracts before the trade deadline to make a bigger move than whatever the move, whatever that move is that people want them to make.
There is an opportunity to do that once you get toward the trade deadline. It just doesn’t feel like that opportunity is right now this off season. Ethan Sands (07:57.
33) And I’m glad you did that Chris because obviously if there are questions within these subtext answers, rants, whatever, we will get into them if there is room for that. But so that’s not going to stifle us from getting into the conversations and stuff like that. But we want to get into all these questions and rants from our subtexters.
The next one from Frank from Sensei. He says, seems doubtful much will happen before the trade deadline this year. Time to start taking Well, I think he meant to say talking.
Time to start talking about the new offense that hasn’t been installed? Honestly, I’m okay with it. Didn’t see a difference maker available that would have made sense. Keep what little powder is left dry.
Seems like Frank gets it. Seems like Frank gets it. Next one coming from Brandon from Charlotte.
He says, I’m cool with the small moves around the core for this offseason, but let’s say we’re about 10 games above 500 by the trade deadline. Would y ‘all be content by staying Pat again? And would Kobe’s job be safe if he didn’t make a move at the deadline again? All caps. And we got Boat, I think he meant to say booted, and we get booted in the first or second round again.
I mean. Chris (09:22.474) You know, the Kobe conversation’s interesting to me, Ethan, because I just don’t see a resume from Kobe Altman since either becoming general manager or what he is right now, president of the basketball operations.
I just don’t see a resume that says this guy deserves to be fired. If anything, I see a resume that says this guy deserves to have a little bit more leeway and a little bit more job security. He assembled a team.
that has won 99 games over the last two years. He assembled the team that got to the Eastern Conference Semi -Finals last year against the Boston Celtics. He assembled a team that is by all indications a contender in the Eastern Conference coming into this year.
Most power rankings have them right there borderline top 10 team in the NBA. That’s a good thing. And you The limitations that he has had in terms of trade assets, in terms of money to spend in free agency, in terms of draft capital, those things are real.
He’s dealing with that. General manager Mike Gansi dealing with that. For him to find Craig Porter Jr.
, a rotation player, undrafted free agent, two -way contract, convert to a standard contract, like that’s a big coup. That’s a big deal for this type of organization, right? for him to be able to find Dean Wade as another diamond in the rough, another developmental success story. That’s a big deal.
A lot of people around the NBA are now talking about what the Cavs were able to do in the first round of the draft this year with the 20th overall pick and seeing that maybe Jalen Tyson is going to be a guy who gets rotation minutes by the end of the season, if middle of the season, if not beginning of the season. Who knows what’s going to happen when it comes to training camp and opening night. I find it hard to believe that he’s going to be in the every night rotation coming straight out of training camp.
But the way that he showed out at summer league, the way that he played his junior year at Cal, the level of readiness that he has shown for NBA basketball, his versatility and ability to play multiple positions. Chris (11:39.242) This is a guy who, if it doesn’t happen right away, by the end of the season, you could see him getting real substantial NBA minutes.
That’s a big deal for them to be able to do that with the 20th pick outside the lottery. A lot of people are already wanting to label him, maybe potentially the steal of the first round. Maybe people think that this is a guy who should have gone a little bit higher than what he did.
They were able to get him at number 20. That’s a positive for Kobe. The Donovan Mitchell trade and the success that that has had given the facts, the way that he has played the first two years here in Cleveland, the way that he has led the first two years in Cleveland, and now the fact that he is locked into a contract extension, like that is another check mark for Kobe Altman.
Sam Merrill, another check mark for Kobe Altman. like, I just don’t think we can take these things, for granted and assume that any other person that was running the basketball operations or doing the talent evaluation would be doing as good of a job as Kobe or would have been able to find Sam Merrill, to find Craig Porter Jr., to draft Jalen Tyson with the 20th pick.
Maybe, but we can’t assume that somebody else would have had this level of success. I don’t know, like when it comes to Kobe, it’s a very perplexing conversation to be, it doesn’t mean that he’s done everything right, and it doesn’t mean that he’s perfect, but I just don’t see a resume that points to a guy who should be on the hot seat in any sort of way. Ethan Sands (13:20.
662) Yeah, and you mentioned Jalen Tyson and I really thought about it today. There is a situation, there is a, he’s shown a lot this summer league, this beginning of camp, all these different things, where you could see him kind of battling it out with guys like Ty Jerome and Craig Porter Jr. for backup, backup.
Backups guard spots or even rotational minutes as a small forward depending on how Kenny Atkinson in the Cavs want to use them So I definitely think that’s something to look for coming into this next season But the next question from our sub textures from Greensboro, North Carolina, he says hey Chris and Ethan is there is hitting the weight room extra hard this summer He really needs to put some muscle on so he can better handle the 82 game grind and playoff run to me I Would think that there is Garland is doing everything he can this offseason to get back to his original weight from before the season started last year and then after he lost said weight when he drinking out of a straw due to a fractured jaw. Like there was never an indication that Darius Garland was all the way back to 100 % or all the way back to his game weight. Like you think about like talk about the NFL and football.
Like players have like playing weight, game weight that they’re used to throwing their bodies around that and all of that. Darius Garland never said he was back to 100%. And there was multiple times that Darius was asked and he was like, I’m almost there.
I’m getting there, but it was never an indication that he was back to feeling like his true self. That could have been mentally with all the things that we’ve talked about in the past that he was dealing with. That could have been physically with all the things that he was dealing with through that last season.
Because we understand that this past year for Darius Garland was the hardest of his NBA career thus far, right? So do I think he could put on some extra weight along with Imani Bates in the weight room and put some muscle on as well? Ethan Sands (15:29.954) along with the weight that he was trying to put back on that he originally lost? Sure, but I don’t know if that is exactly what he’s been focused on rather than focusing on just getting him back to the playing weight that he was used Chris (15:44.99) Yeah, I mean, I will say even it has been a focus of Darius.
think Darius understands that he’s got to get bigger, faster, stronger. he’s got to become a more physical player, especially when it comes to playoff basketball. You got a taste of it for the first time against the Knicks two years ago.
He came back, he talked about getting stronger. He talked about learning how to deal with that physicality. Talked about learning how to deal with the ups and downs and stuff like that.
And I You know, coming off a series against Orlando, tough physical team, coming off a series against Boston, tough physical team, had to deal with Drew Holliday, had to deal with Derek White, had to deal with Jalen Suggs at times, Gary Harris other times. I think Darius fully understands that getting stronger, getting more physical, being able to better absorb contact, being able to deal with a level of physicality, graviness, holding, all of that, what you see in the postseason. That’s going to be really, really important for him.
The other thing that he’s going to have to learn how to do is finish around the rim through contact. He’s not somebody who gets to the free throw line a whole bunch. We understand that there are differences in everybody’s game.
He’s more of a finesse player. He’s more of a herky -jerky player. He’s more of a change of pace type guy.
But finishing through contact at the rim, that’s something I know...
that people inside the organization have talked to Darius about trying to get better at as well. So I think there are plenty of things that Darius and everybody else inside this organization are focused on. Everybody has different goals throughout the course of the off season.
I will say that for Darius, one of those goals, a goal of his, is to get more physical and to be a stronger Ethan Sands (17:33.11) That being said, Chris, he doesn’t want to lose that shiftiness, right? Like that is what makes him who he is. And like, as I said, I’ve been all, you can call me a stalker all you want.
I’ve been checking out the stories, the Instagram page and all of that. Darius is definitely getting to his bag work as people call it nowadays and working on his handle and making sure that he’s still getting off screens and making able to convert from beyond the arc, all of those things. Chris (17:36.
18) That’s right. Yes. Ethan Sands (18:00.
492) There was even a post that was made maybe it was last week or a couple of weeks ago that he had to ask the Instagram or Twitter refs if it was a travel or not because of how badly he caught the defender lacking. So I think it’s definitely a give and take when it comes to Darius. And like you say, Chris, and you emphasized it well, that’s one of the emphasis is for his off season growth is getting to where he feels comfortable at his weight strength.
and where he can finish at the rim and contribute inside the interior rather than just solely being a driving kit guy because that’s what we know him to be right now. Chris (18:41.044) think the other thing, Ethan, is that every player in the NBA, every point guard in the NBA specifically, because we’re having a conversation about Darius in the point guard spot, everyone is built differently, and everybody has their own thing that allows them to stand out, that separates them from other guys.
Not everybody is going to be built like a supersized point guard the way that Cade Cunningham is. You know what I’m saying? Like, Darius is somebody who’s going to have to deal with size and physicality limitations throughout his entire career. But, but he’s had those same limitations since coming into the NBA and he’s turned himself into an All -Star.
He’s turned himself into a $200 million player. He’s turned himself into a franchise pillar for the Cavs. He’s turned himself into one of the better young point guards in the league.
So, it hasn’t been something. Maybe he gets to a level where it’s going to be prohibitive to him, but it hasn’t gotten to a level where it’s prevented him from becoming that kind of player. He’s always going to have limitations on the defensive end of the floor too, because he’s going to be somebody who gets pushed around a little bit.
He’s going to be somebody who gets bullied a little bit. He’s going to be somebody who, if there’s a switch or something like that, he’s going to get posted up. Those are just things the calves have to navigate, those are things that Darius has to navigate because his body is his body.
And if you look at him, there isn’t a lot more mass that he can add to that Ethan Sands (20:21.142) while maintaining the speed and agility that he needs to be successful. Chris (20:23.
442) Right. Right. Things that have made him in the past a special Ethan Sands (20:30.
262) Yeah, I mean, I remember seeing him for the first time in person and I was like, his stop start speed, his like ready to go like herky jerkiness as you describe it, like it’s on a different level than a lot of players in this league. And that’s not side to side that I’m gonna go at you, bring it back and then go back after the basket. And that’s why Darius hasn’t had to.
Chris (20:44.361) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (20:53.
824) go through contact a whole lot in his career because not a lot of people are keeping up with a lot of the dribbling moves and the hesitations that he’s pulling off. the next question from our subtexters comes from Evan in Lindhurst. He says, blatantly, who’s the bargain free agent you want to see on the Free agent trade? Two very different conversations, right? Free agent, I think we’ve talked about it before, Chris.
There are not, especially now, like getting into this part of the summer, there’s not really anybody on my radar for the Cavs when it comes to like who they could go after. There were plenty at the beginning where it was like, hmm, I could see them trying to do this if the Isaac Okoro situation doesn’t go their Chris (21:16.372) Yeah.
Chris (21:37.746) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (21:44.
18) I could see them trying to do this, but like, when it comes to the money aspect, it feels like it always comes back to money, right? The second apron, the first apron wanting to stay out of the luxury tax, all of those things come into play or came into play in the beginning of the off season for the Cavs. And now it’s like Slim Pickens and guys that they don’t feel like would be much of an upgrade when it comes to the guys that they already have on this roster. Chris (22:10.
558) Yeah, I don’t hate the idea and we’re talking about, we’re talking about maybe veteran minimum type salary. perhaps a little bit north of that. If the calves want to dip into the mid level exception, but at this stage of free agency, July 22nd, these guys that are available in the marketplace, they’re not looking at big time contracts, right? They’re not looking at breaking the bank.
For the most part any team out there could probably get these guys on the cheap. So Ethan, I don’t hate the idea of Doug McDermott. I understand the defensive limitations.
He is constantly going to get played off the floor. I don’t think he would play much in a playoff environment for the Cavs, but to get through the regular season to add some more shooting off the bench, a little bit more size off the bench. some movement that you can run throughout the course of your offensive sets and stuff like that.
I don’t hate the idea of Doug McDermott for cheap, especially on this team. I don’t hate the idea of Justin Holliday for cheap. I think the kinds of guys that the Cavs are looking at right now, or any team in the NBA looking at right now, depth pieces, playable depth pieces.
that, you know, provide some insurance to what you already have established on your roster. And I think that’s a good role for somebody like Doug McDermott. I think that’s a good role for somebody like Jenny Osmond.
If the Cavs want to go that direction. I think that’s a good role for somebody like Tristan Thompson, right? Not going to play every single night. Don’t get used to where your shots are going to be coming from or when you’re going to come off the bench.
Just be ready when your number is called, be a pro. And who knows what’s going to happen throughout the course of an 82 game season. Injuries, suspensions, fall trouble.
Just having as many guys that Kenny Atkinson feels like he can go to without him having to go to the Omani Bates of the world. I think that could Chris (24:31.851) beneficial for a team like the Ethan Sands (24:35.
488) In that sense, Chris, I mean, I feel like like we talked about earlier, Tristan Thompson would be my pick if we had to go that route because he already has a relationship with almost everybody on this team outside of Jalen Tyson. I mean, and he’s the guy that you feel like is a leader in the locker room, has a sort of presence. And if you want to continue to have that kind of bad boy mentality, even without Marcus Moore, a senior on the roster.
Chris (24:47.536) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (25:04.
502) Tristan kind of brings that even from a bench roll where he’ll be barking as he says. but I think the next question, or actually is not a question at all to start, it’s from a random subtext or no name, no state, no city, no nothing. He or she or they says, great move stabilizing the core four would have liked to trade Garland, but that was not realistic due to his contract.
Any chance Jalen Tyson, can take Isaac Okoro’s place in the lineup. I think that is a little bit more difficult. I think when you’re talking about skill sets, right? Because Jalen Tyson is a guy who knows that he needs to grow as a defender, especially at the NBA level.
He is a great player when it comes to the offensive end of the floor. We saw that in Summer League. We saw that at Cal.
We saw that at different aspects of his game, especially when he went through a three on three. pre -draft workout with the Cavaliers. I mean, he feels like a guy that could plug in where Isaac Okoro might have lacked, even if it isn’t a three -point shooter currently.
Chris, you talked to him. He said he’s very confident in his three -point shot. We’re still waiting to see that.
I mean, he went two of two in a game the other night in Summer League, right? But we’re looking more for volume. We’re looking for high pressure situations and things of that nature. Chris (26:15.
839) Mmm. Chris (26:22.623) Run.
Ethan Sands (26:31.67) Cavs really weren’t in high pressure situations throughout this summer league at a whole bunch. But Jaylen Tyson picking up as a small forward where Isaac Locoro may leave depending on if he accepts a qualifying offer or if the Cavs decide to use him in a sign and trade.
I could see it more so in like a backup role. I could see it in more so of a small ball lineup role where you think about what he’s doing offensively with more shooters alongside him. But I definitely Chris (26:31.
71) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (27:01.396) it’s difficult to put those two skill sets next to each other because they kind of do the opposite of each other when it comes to defensive.
Chris (27:08.255) no. Chris (27:11.
954) Yeah. And I understand, I understand where the texture is coming from. If you’re talking about trying to get Jaylen Tyson some minutes, somebody’s going to have to lose minutes.
Right. So, it’s, it’s easier to point to Isaac and say, he would probably be the one that would lose minutes. Sam Merrill, same thing.
more so than somebody like Charis Laverbe who has a clear relationship. With this coaching staff a trust already built in with this coaching staff and he’s got a clear role a role that the Cavs need For for him. They need some scoring consistency off the bench.
They need some Ability to make plays create shots both for himself and for others So so I understand that the thought of well if we’re gonna squeeze Jaylen Tyson into the rotation, if we’re going to try and get him minutes, who loses some, it’s not going to be Karis, right? It’s probably not going to be Dean Wade, depending on how this coaching staff feels about him, depending on how healthy and what place he is from a confidence standpoint, it’s probably not going to be George Niang in the regular season at least. So you look towards somebody like Isaac, but I agree with you, Ethan, in terms of what Isaac brings to the table. is special, it’s different, it’s unique.
And Jaylen Tyson’s not bringing that level of defense. He’s not bringing that defense at the point of attack. He’s not bringing the capability that Isaac brings on defense to go out and guard Paolo Bencaro and Damian Lillard and whoever it may be.
That is the best scoring option for the other team at one of those particular positions. I think the only one. You know, if Isaac’s not around, if another team gives him an offer sheet that, is just out of a range that the Cavs are comfortable going to, I would think that Caris would probably pick up as the quote unquote defensive stopper, shift into that kind of role and take a lot of those matchups.
think Max Truss would have to take a lot of those matchups, but, but I just, I’m like you, Ethan, I don’t see Jalen Tyson and Isaac Okoro as comparable. So if Kenny Atkinson is saying to himself, Chris (29:34.484) Hey, like we need somebody to replace the defense of Isaac Okoro.
We need somebody because Isaac’s in fall trouble because he’s actually on this roster. know, Jalen Tyson is a tough one to ask to do those kinds of things, especially as a rookie. Ethan Sands (29:53.
298) Right, I mean sure Jalen Tyson had some lofty goals when he came into his introductory press conference talking about wanting to be named to any Defensive team in his rookie season. That’s also kind of coach speak We’ve talked about that a couple times right like that was what he was said to have had as his weakness Coming into this draft. So we’re having a mindset to go the opposite way You love to see it from a rookie.
You don’t see it a whole lot. So Chris (30:07.934) Yeah.
Ethan Sands (30:23.19) Things that come into play, right? But the other thing that you mentioned that I liked was Keris LaVert was as the point of attack defender, right? Because when you think about what the kind of lineups they put together when they needed scoring and things of that nature, they would switch Keris with Isaac last season because you don’t get the same amount that you get from Isaac, but Keris is still pasty on the ball. Keris is still long and able to defend at the point of attack against.
point guards, shooting guards, even some small forwards. But the other guy I know because we talk about him a lot this past year and gave him a kind of a little bit of a rise since what we were talking about at the beginning of last season. Dean Wade, people are obviously thinking about him when it comes to defense.
And sure, he’s not a necessary point of attack defender because you don’t see him picking up 94 feet. You don’t see him at the top of the key as much. We’ve seen him guard Kate Cunningham, right? That was his defensive assignment when they played the Detroit Pistons last year.
We’ve seen him guard Paolo Bencaro. We’ve seen him guard Jason Tatum. There is seemingly no range where Dean Wade cannot fit in when it comes to guarding players on the defensive end for opposing teams.
Sure, you don’t want to put him against Giannis. Sure, you don’t want to put him against Joel Embiid, I feel like if you told Dean Wade that’s your assignment that night, he’d figure out a way to at least pester them. Chris (31:54.
568) And here’s something else too, Ethan. I think this is important. Kenny Atkinson is somebody who believes in analytics and it’s not going to make every single decision for him, but it’s going to provide him with data and it’s going to inform his decisions.
Analytics love the impact that Dean Wade makes. I’ve talked about this stat a lot. It’s something that I reference.
It’s something that I know other writers around the NBA reference. And I know that teams use it as well. Including the Cavs.
It’s a website. It’s called Dunks and Threes. They do estimated plus minus for offense and defense and for defensive estimated plus minus which is the estimated impact on defense per 100 possessions for an individual player Dean Wade was in the 96th percentile of that category Here are some of the players that were in that same kind of range that are considered that level of impactful based on this particular metric.
Okay? Draymond Green, Jalen Suggs, Bam Atabayo, Victor Wembenyama, Rudy Gobert, Herbert Jones, Evan Mobley, Anthony Davis. Ethan Sands (33:18.218) Nafsed, Nafsed, I Chris (33:21.
268) And that doesn’t mean that Dean’s that caliber of a defender, but in terms of the kind of impact that he makes defensively, this particular metric points to him being a really, really important defender and a really, really capable defender as well. Ethan Sands (33:38.402) I mean, and if you want to get basic when it comes to the advanced stats, Dean Wade was top three in the entire NBA when it comes to players that played 50 or more games in the NBA in defensive writing.
So, doesn’t get much better than that, right? So, but the next question from a subtexter, Anu from San Francisco, he says, please rank top Isaac Acoro sign and trade rumors most beneficial to the Based on prior commentary, feels like you guys would say Finney Smith and then Cam Johnson. Number two, are there others you guys are hearing about? I mean, I think those are the main two that we’ve talked about, the main two that we’ve been seeing, Cam and Dory and Finney Smith. I don’t know if there’s like a one, two when it comes to those two.
I don’t know, Chris. I feel like the Cavs have liked both of them a very long time based on what you said previously. Chris (34:23.
442) Yeah Ethan Sands (34:36.812) Do you have a guy that you think would, do you think one of them is better, highly suited for the calves right now? Or, and also do you think that there’s like another guy waiting for the calves that they’re looking Chris (34:52.938) I think KM Johnson would be at the top of my list personally, just because of how prolific of a shooter he is, the kind of gravity that he creates, the kind of spacing that he creates.
He really doesn’t do anything other than score and shoot from the outside. He’s not going to impact the game in terms of his passing. He’s not going to be a great defensive player.
He’s not a great rebounder either. So he’s going to have a stat line that looks Very very minimal in terms of his impact in other categories but the gravity the three -point shooting the threat that he is every time he’s on the floor and just How good he can be? For a team’s offense in terms of raising that ceiling especially on this team where Darius is going to create so much Donovan’s going to create so much you could potentially create with Evan Mobley in the post or from the elbow, Karras -Levert can create as well. You don’t want Cam Johnson to be the kind of guy who’s going to go create offense for himself.
He’s not that kind of player. His production is oftentimes going to be tied to how good are the shots that he gets? How many looks do his teammates create for him? And I think that works on this particular team. I totally understand the appeal of Dorian Finney Smith.
He’s longer. He’s a better rebounder. He’s a better defender He can probably He can probably guard two through four twos might be a little bit of a stretch, but certainly three and four I think some twos he can probably get away with He does have more experience He has been on the radar of the Cavs in the past, just like Cam Johnson has as well.
But if it’s me, I just think that the shooting weapon for Cam Johnson is at an elite level, despite the fact that there are some injury concerns there as well that you have to deal with. So he would be at the top of my wishlist. I think he would be near the top of the Cavs wishlist.
I think the other team just to kind of watch. Chris (37:12.97) We talked about Utah and the salary cap space that they have.
You just try and think of Isaac Koro type teams. Like where would he fit? Like what kinds of teams could potentially bring out the best in him? What kinds of teams need some of the stuff that he brings to the table? And of course I start personally looking at the teams are really bad defensively and want to change their identity, want to get tougher, want to get more competitive. I think San Antonio is an interesting team to monitor from that standpoint.
I don’t know the level of interest that the Spurs have in Isaac. I think Detroit obviously comes to mind. think Orlando comes to mind for an Isaac Okoro type team as well.
But San Antonio, I know for a fact has somebody inside that front office that I don’t want to say they swayed Kobe Altman and Mike Gansy’s decision in the draft in 2020, but they weren’t working for the San Antonio Spurs at the time. And it was somebody that this front office talked to about these draftable players and they recommended Isaac Kikoro very, very highly because of what they knew about him because of the experience that they had with him. So there is somebody inside the San Antonio Spurs, front office that is an Isaac Kikoro believer.
And I do think that they need to get better as a defensive team. It’s one thing to have Wemby, right? It’s another thing to have Chris Paul at the point of attack at this stage of his career, having somebody out there on the perimeter that can just be a tenacious. on the ball defender, a disruptor.
think that helps you become more competitive. If you’re a team like San Antonio, that helps you change the culture a little bit. I haven’t heard anything from my sources around the NBA about San Antonio having interest in him, but I think that’s an, I think that’s a spot that is worth monitoring at least.
Ethan Sands (39:29.898) My my would that defense be scary. my goodness.
Like you think about Isaac Okoro playing into the hand, like playing the opposing best ball handler into the hands of not only his vacuum, his little like vortex that he puts defenders in and then he said, all right, well, I’m a little tired now. I’m gonna just lead you down to Wimby and let him finish the job. Ridiculous, scary as heck.
But. The next question, in a little bit of a rant, comes from our guy in South Bend, Derek. He says, A knockdown 3 point shot would be a great addition to Evans game, but it’s not a panacea for this offense.
Ultimately, I think Allen would be better off with a stretch 4 and that Mobley is too talented to be limited to just float around the perimeter waiting for catch and shoot opportunities while sharing the court with a big like Chris (40:34.996) Panacea. Panacea.
Yeah. Ethan Sands (40:54.774) I’m sure many in the Cavs front office see this issue, but when do you think something is done about it? Well, I mean, if we had to put a date on it, I would say next year, I would say potentially at the trade deadline, but I think they’re at least going to give this a chance throughout the beginning of this season to see if Kenny Atkinson can make it work, right? Because Jared Allen and Kenny Atkinson have history, they have understanding of what each other are good at and those kinds of things, but I think they want to keep the core four, but if there is a drastic difference between what Evan Mobley brings into this next season than he did last season, that could help, but if it’s still not enough and they see themselves kind of waving in the Eastern Conference at the trade deadline, I would not be opposed to seeing the Cavs do a move in that kind of capacity to make a different change and see where they can have for Jared Allen, who still has some pull around the league.
Chris (41:55.604) Yeah, I think they make the change, Ethan, when they feel it’s necessary to make the change. think they make the change when they feel like having Jared Allen on this roster alongside Evan Mobley is a significant detriment to their progress, to Evan Mobley’s progress and to their ceiling as an organization.
And I just don’t think they’re at that point yet. I don’t think they need to be at that point yet. Here’s the other variable to this whole thing.
Donovan Mitchell loves Jared Allen. Donovan Mitchell loves the partnership that he has created with Jared Allen. Jared Allen is one of the premier pick and roll bigs in the entire NBA.
Beyond the fact that, you know, he’s such a good anchor on defense, beyond the fact that he’s such a good rim protector on defense, beyond the fact that he is a low maintenance kind of guy, he is an elite pick and roll big. And that is extremely valuable. in today’s NBA that’s extremely valuable for this team specifically because of Darius Garland, because of Donovan Mitchell, because of their reliance on that particular play.
And even though Jarrett can’t really space it out to the three point line and knock down those shots, he has enhanced his offensive game. He can knock down that mid -range jumper. He got more comfortable with that as the season went on this past year.
He got more comfortable as a playmaker. He got more comfortable as somebody who could catch the ball on the move and do some things with it when they got the ball in his hands. And he creates a lot of vertical spacing.
There’s different ways that the Cavs can use the spacing that Jarrett creates. But bottom line is, he makes things easier for Donovan. He makes things easier for Darius.
He may not make things easier on Evan because of the space that they occupy. But he still does make things easier for the Cavs guards because of his screening ability, because of the threat that he is when rolling to the basket, because of the lobs that he can catch and flush, because of the offensive rebounds that he can grab, and all those different things can’t be overlooked. Ethan Sands (44:10.
146) Chris, the next question from our subtexters is, you think that the Cavs will be able to compete for championships in the future while starting two small guards in their backcourt? Are there other examples of teams with two small guards that were able to win big in the NBA? I can’t think of any myself. I know, obviously the first two names that come to my mind that did not win the champ or were, I don’t even know. I forget what.
Pistons did. it’s Joe Dumars and Isaiah Thomas. So that’s the back chord that immediately comes to mind for me.
Yeah. Yeah. Chris (44:48.
234) 40 years ago. Chris (44:52.306) Nearly.
That’s a long time ago, right? Long time ago. And if you have to go back that far, if that’s the one that stands out to you and you have to go back that far, I think that’s pretty telling, don’t you? Ethan Sands (44:54.508) I Ethan Sands (45:10.
722) 100 % and the other ones that I’m thinking of is Sam Jones and Bob Cousy. forget how tall Bob Cousy was but I don’t think he was that tall. I know Sam Jones is like 6 ‘4′′.
Chris (45:18.211) WAAAAY BACK! Chris (45:23.998) Yeah, no.
I mean that’s...
That’s, that’s a long way to go back. mean, Tony Parker wasn’t the biggest dude in the world, but he also had Manu around him. Bruce Bowen was longer, more of a defensive minded guy.
guess if you want to consider him the starting shooting guard. Look, I think the truth is when it comes to Darius and Donovan, there are complications that come with that pairing. There are limitations that come with that pairing.
And it’s hard to sit here in today’s NBA when it’s a wing dominated league and say those two guys together can win a championship if they’re the two best players on the roster. Right? But there’s a situation where they’re not the two best players on the roster and there’s also a unique makeup to this roster that I’m not saying that it’s going to happen because I understand the complications and I understand all of the hurdles, but it would feel like to me, Ethan, if there’s a situation where it can work, it’s here with this makeup of Evan Mobley and Jared Allen protecting those guys on the defensive end of the floor. And Evan Mobley and Jared Allen may be making things easier and creating space for Darius and Donovan on the offensive end of the floor.
So I have my doubts about whether those two guys together can win a championship because of what this league is geared. because of the kinds of players that impact seven game series the most. But I think if there’s a situation where it could potentially happen, it’s with the makeup of this roster, with the other guys, the other components around those guys, making it a little bit more viable.
Let’s just put Ethan Sands (47:21.718) Alright Chris, the next one we got is just a quick one, just a quick read, it’s no questions, no nothing. It says, love the Mowgli signing.
With new TV money increasing future salaries, Mowgli’s deal will feel like a great value in several seasons. That’s kinda funny. Chris (47:39.
69) I agree with that though. I mean, if you think about it, the salary cap is going to continue to go up. The new TV money is going to kick in and the kind of contract that, that Evan Mobley has, like when that salary, um, in general increases like 10, 12 % or something like that, it’s not going to, it’s not going to feel like it’s the kind of contract that is prohibitive to team, um, building.
Ethan Sands (48:10.186) Next question from a subtexter is, what percentage chance do you think there is that a trade gets done this off season, any trade, big or small? If I had to put a number on it, I’d say Chris (48:28.702) that a trade does get done? Ethan Sands (48:30.
402) Correct. Well, trade for me also includes sign -in trade. Chris (48:36.
106) 75 % that Isaac Okoro gets signed and traded? Ethan Sands (48:40.278) that or something else. Chris (48:42.
058) Whoo. That’s pretty high to me. Yeah, I’d probably go lower on that one.
Maybe like 55%, a little bit above 50 -50. I certainly think that if the Cavs could get enough back in return for Isaac, I think there’s motivation to do that. And they’ve had multiple conversations with multiple teams centered around Isaac.
They’ve had conversations with teams. centered around Dean Wade and George Niang. Certainly not the top tier players on this roster, but the other ones that are a little bit more replaceable, that are a little bit more expendable.
They have had those kinds of conversations centered around those guys, but I still think that there are targets out there for the Cavs in sign and trades. And I think there are teams out that they can get involved when it comes to sign and trades for Isaac. But I’m at a point where I still think.
.. as close to that possibility is him just returning on the qualifying offer and betting on himself.
Ethan Sands (49:57.398) For me, it’s more so not about Isaac and the decision that comes down with that, but just the amount of times we’ve heard somebody in the Cavs organization this summer be like, we want to get better around the margins. Sure, you can get better around the margins by adding Jalen Tyson, but just doing that doesn’t do a whole lot.
And I don’t think that they’re looking at this free agent market that we’ve already talked about being really dry and partially weak that They’re like, okay, we’re just gonna go add Doug McDermott or and be done with it. I feel like when it comes to that, they would have to make a trade, whether it’s smaller guys, somebody maybe like Ty Jerome, maybe somebody like, Caris Laverte, something like that, that would have to get done for them to feel like this off season was successful just based on what Colby Altman said at the end of season press conference, what they talked about at Kenny and acting Kenny Atkinson’s intro. Chris (50:30.
025) Mm Ethan Sands (50:53.922) and all of those different things. I just feel like they feel still like they have to get something more around the margins for this team to take the next step.
But I also know that they are very content or not content, very happy with the players that they have on the roster currently. The next question comes from Brian from San Diego. He says, any sense of the coaching staff’s view of the performance of Luke Travers this summer? I know he have big numbers, but it still seems like the potential is there to keep him tethered to the organization.
Chris, I don’t know. I don’t have any sources on Luke Travers. I feel like you have a better site Chris (51:41.
246) I wrote, think going into summer league, Ethan, that it was highly unlikely that he would come from Australia and be with the Cavs this coming season. I still believe that it’s highly unlikely. I don’t think he did anything that really stood out when it came to practices during summer league, when it came to the games during summer league.
And I just think, I don’t feel like the Cavs believe that there’s any rush. to bring him over. And I know Luke has talked about, you know, I want to come to the NBA as soon as possible.
He’s under contract with his team in Australia. Obviously he has an out in that contract with the team in Australia, but I just don’t think that the Cavs ever looked at this as it was going to happen this year. I think they believe in Luke’s potential.
I think they believe Maybe possibly one day he could be an NBA player. Like, let’s put it this way. When they drafted him with the 56th overall pick in 2022, it was, all right, we’re going to draft this guy.
We’re going to stash him overseas and we’ll see. Maybe possibly one day down the road, if this happens, if this happens, if this happens, the fact They are even having internal conversations about the possibility. And like I said, I think it’s highly unlikely, but the fact that they’re already having those internal conversations this soon, I think is shocking to them, honestly.
I think it’s very, very surprising how quick Luke Travers has developed into maybe possibly an NBA player down the And I think that’s a really, really good place to be, but I don’t think they’re going to rush this. And I don’t think that Luke would come to the NBA to play most of this upcoming season in the G League. And I don’t think that Luke would come to the NBA.
Chris (53:56.092) unless he felt like there was a pathway to not guaranteed playing time, but like something more than what I think the Cavs can offer to him at this point. Ethan Sands (54:10.
146) And Chris, mean, maybe it’s the mustache, maybe it’s the long hair, but I think people forget how young he is, right? Like he’s 22, he’s going to turn 23 in September. Like he’s got a long way to go. Most players at this time in their career are still in the G League anyway.
He’s getting professional experience. He’s getting to play against high caliber players. He’s getting to play alongside Matthew Delavidola, who seems to have taken him under his wing.
Chris (54:18.312) Yes. Chris (54:30.
078) in Ethan Sands (54:38.026) and shown him what it needs and what takes to get to the NBA. So there, like you said, there is no rush, right? There is no, especially with this group that they have right now, like they are trying to figure things out internally already, adding a new guy to the mix who’s still trying to get his footing wouldn’t be beneficial to the Cavs or to Luke Travers.
But the next question comes from DJ in Colorado Springs. He says, Hey Chris, Chris (54:52.071) Anyway.
Ethan Sands (55:07.414) Do think the new coaching staff will be able to fix the Cavs previous shooting woes? It seems like every other team in the league outshoots us. Hopefully the summer league tram shooting is a premonition of things to Chris (55:23.
752) Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t be overly concerned about what happened at summer league when it came to the Cavs shooting. the best shooters that they have on this roster were watching from court side, right? Sam Merrill, Max Struce, Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell was watching from afar as well. I think they could certainly improve their shooting.
I think that’s always going to be something that the Cavs look at and other teams around the NBA look How can we get more shooting? How can we get more floor spacing? How can we get more length and athleticism on the perimeter? How can we find a way to get more three and D guys across the roster? so that’s obviously something that the calves are always going to look toward. That’s one of the reasons why I brought up Doug McDermott, right? That’s one of the reasons why I brought up Justin Holliday. But, when, when looking at this roster makeup, I think the style that Kenny wants to play, and if you look back to his time in Brooklyn, one of the top three point shooting teams in the entire NBA, in terms of attempts for all four years that he was there with the Nets, I see no reason why the Cavs, based on the personnel that they have, can’t be successful playing that kind of Ethan Sands (56:40.
098) Alright Chris, we have made it to the last subtext of the evening coming from Jeff from Brexville. He says, I don’t have a rant. I think the Cavs did the things they needed to do.
Donovan, Evan, and a new coach. I was 50 -50 on JB, but I think it was time for a new voice. My worry is the Knicks and the 76ers have gotten a lot better and we need to rely on health and internal development to stay even.
Even Pacers and Magic got a lot better. At trade deadline, if this group is not keeping pace and I’m optimistic they will, then they should take a risky swing. I don’t know what it is, but you don’t want to lose this opportunity when they’re close.
I think that’s really well said, right? And that’s what we talked about earlier. Like, if the Cavs feel like they are on the cusp and they need to make a change in Jared Allen, Evan Mobley dynamic isn’t working, the Darian Donovan Mitchell dynamic isn’t working, maybe that’s the time that they make that move. Maybe that’s the time that they take that next step and say, we need to finally go ahead and make a change to see if something different will bring more value, bring more efficiency, will change how the offense looks.
And that’ll probably be based on how the beginning of the season looks, right? Depending on which pairing looks better in the beginning of year three of the Donovan Mitchell experience. We talked about it. Chris has talked about it at abundance.
Darius and Donovan Mitchell, and then Mobley -Gerrard Allen. Two pairings that we still have to figure out if they’re gonna work this season. Chris (58:21.
546) So here’s the other thing too, and I totally understand the viewpoint of people that say, well, look at the other teams around the Eastern Conference and look how much better they got. You don’t just want to bank on internal development. You just don’t want to rely on winning 48 games last year and getting to the Eastern Conference semifinals because there’s no guarantee that that’s going to happen again.
The only thing that I would say to counter that is there was nothing that the Cavs could have done this off season to counter Philadelphia going out and signing Paul George. There was nothing that the Cavs could have done to respond to New York going out and trading for McHale Bridges. What were they supposed to do? Like when other teams around the NBA make those moves, sometimes you just have to tip your cap.
And sometimes you say, Hey, we weren’t in the same position to make those kinds of significant additions to this roster. We didn’t have the salary cap space like Philadelphia did to go out and get Paul George in free agency for nothing. we didn’t have the kind of assets.
that Brooklyn would have taken back in return for Mikhail Bridges, who obviously wanted to play in New York with the Knicks because of all of the Villanova connections. But even if he didn’t really have a choice of where he was going to go in a trade, it’s not like the Cavs had the assets and the means to go out and get Mikhail Bridges. So sometimes teams are just better equipped and better positioned.
to go make these significant additions and you have to do everything in your power to try and keep up with those teams. But that doesn’t mean that there’s somebody out there that is the caliber of Paul George that the Cavs failed to add in free agency and they should be criticized for it. Or there’s somebody out there, the caliber of Mikel Bridges that the Cavs failed to trade for.
You know what I’m saying? So I think sometimes it’s just a situation Chris (01:00:31.592) Other teams around the NBA are going to get better because they’re in a position to get better. The Cavs weren’t in that same position this off season.
So there’s so many people that say, well, the Cavs are not on the same level as Boston. They’re not on the same level as New York. They’re not on the same level as Philadelphia.
Okay. You’re probably right about that, but what can they do realistically to get to that level? Like who is the player out there that is available to them that they have the resources to go out and add to this roster that is going to put them on the same level as Boston. Please tell me, show me who that is.
So I just think you have to accept the fact that sometimes other teams are going to get better in an off season and you can’t overreact to that. You can’t panic because of that. And you know, you just do everything that you can do within the resources that you have to try and stay closely connected to those teams or on a similar tier as those teams.
But like when Philadelphia adds Paul George, it’s like a number of years ago, I remember having a conversation with somebody in the Cavs front office, Ethan. I’m sorry, I’m going on this rant, but I remember this conversation that I had with a member of the Cavs front office and, you know, they were a great team. They were the best team in the Eastern conference.
They were going to the NBA finals every single year. And it just so happens that one summer Golden state added Kevin Durant. And one of the members of the front office turned to me, Chris, and he said, what the hell are we supposed to do about that? They just added one of the best players in NBA history to a team that won 73 games.
They just added one of the best players in NBA history to a team that was already going to compete for a championship. What the hell do we do in response to that? What are we supposed to do? Like, how can Chris (01:02:41.608) Go, okay, add Channing Fry.
That helps us. More floor spacing, more shooting. that’s all you can do is work with what you have.
So sometimes teams are just going to make moves that, that trump what you’re able to do. And that’s the case, you know, hats off to New York. They added McElbridges.
They got better. Hats off to Philadelphia. They added Paul George.
They got better. There’s nothing that the calves can do. There’s nothing that they can do to respond to Ethan Sands (01:03:18.
85) I think, I think like when you see those trades and the ironic thing for me was when the New York Knicks trade happened for McAl bridges We all knew Donovan Mitchell was in New York that day Donovan Mitchell was at the New York Mets game like tweeting crazy about deleting his Twitter and I thought it was gonna be crazy if he deleted his Twitter at the McAl bridges trade I was like, lord, this is gonna send everybody into the universe be like, well, he didn’t get traded to New York and now he deleted his Chris (01:03:32.894) Hmm. Ethan Sands (01:03:47.
882) No. So thank you, Donovan Mitchell, for not sending the universe into spiral by deleting your Twitter for multiple reasons. the other thing being that there are guys on this team that we’ve talked about this last year, this last playoff run that believed in the guys in this locker room, right? And believed that they had the guys necessary to compete for championships.
And if you don’t, if you tell me that Donovan Mitchell and Max True didn’t see all these trades, in the off -season, they’d be like, so what? Get in the gym, let’s go after them and let’s show people that we’re better than them anyway. Like, there were so many times last year where the Cavs were counted out. And I said this all the time and sometimes I got hate for it, but it got to the point last year where it felt like any time the Cavs were counted out, there were some way that they would be resilient and show that they could do something and.
.. even just prove people wrong, right? So Max Drews, Donovan Mitchell are two of the guys that I really feel like we’re looking at the trades and be like, well, how funny would it be if we met them in the regular season and just beat the heck out of them? How funny would it be if we faced them in the playoffs and they weren’t how they were on paper? Or even funnier, be like, hey, how many dynasties of Paul George could we ruin? He went to the Thunder, he went to the Clippers, now he’s on the 76ers.
Chris (01:05:00.061) Hmm. Ethan Sands (01:05:15.
33) Can we just say that he didn’t get anything because he had to go through us? Like that would be a fun storyline, right? And sure, these are just things that I, as a competitor, would be thinking in my head. And I feel like Donovan Mitchell and Max Struce, who are guys who I feel like are the leaders of this team when it comes to guys that want to push everybody to the next level, would be thinking in these scenarios. Sure, it could be a little bit of egotistical thinking or just being arrogant or whatever you want to call But sometimes that’s how you gotta think, especially playing basketball.
Like we’ve talked about it already. Sometimes you gotta take 30 shots and miss 20 of them and make 10 of them or whatever, just so you know, like, like Kobe said, I’d rather take 30 and miss 30 than take five and miss five and stop shooting. Cause that means that I stopped shooting.
Right? So, but Chris, I think we’ve gone on long enough with all the subtext questions. and people not making fun of you with your background. I think we’re going to wrap up today’s episode on that note.
So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the wine and gold talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris and me by subscribing to self text. Sign up for a 14 day free trial.
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