CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast , the hosts discuss the contract negotiations and the potential future of Isaac Okoro , a restricted free agent for the Cavs . They analyze the market value of Okoro and the financial implications for the team. More Cavs coverage Rock Entertaintment, Gray Media team up on new Ohio sports network Can LeBron James lead Team USA to another gold medal? Wine and Gold Talk podcast The player the Guardians should promote ASAP; the NBA’s ‘second draft’; kickoff craziness: Terry’s Talkin’ podcast Takeaways: The Cavs have leverage in contract negotiations with Isaac Okoro as restricted free agent, but they are cautious about offering a multi-year deal at a higher salary.
The market value for Okoro is uncertain , and the Cavs want to avoid paying non-starters a significant amount of money in the new salary structure. The Cavs’ projected win total for the upcoming season is around 47-48, but it may take more wins to secure a playoff spot in the competitive Eastern Conference. Avoiding the play-in tournament is a priority for the Cavs, and they will need to compete with several strong teams to secure a locked-in playoff spot.
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The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. I’m joined by your favorite beat reporter, Chris Fidor. And Chris, we’re gonna get right into the nitty gritty from the I heard that you might have some news for us in regards to the last kind of piece that the Cavs are looking for when it comes to this offseason.
They extended Donovan Mitchell, they extended Evan Mobley, they got a new head coach, and now it’s kind of figuring out what’s going on with restricted free agent Isaac Okoro. Will he be back on the qualifying offer? Will he be using a trade? Will he be using a sign -in trade package? Chris, what are you hearing? Chris (00:54.504) Well, I think this is where we’re at.
it’s obviously the end of July and only two teams really have practical cap space. And the thing that I heard earlier today is that book teams have had an opportunity to use their cap space on Isaac and they have chosen not to. there have been teams out there that have the mid -level exception available.
They’ve had an opportunity to use that on Isaac, which is a little bit North of what is qualifying offer is. They’ve had the opportunity to use the mid -level exception on Isaac. They haven’t done that.
So that tells you just kind of the value around the NBA. And it’s something that we’ve talked about on this podcast a few times, Ethan, is that, you know, guys like him, they have value. There’s no doubt about it, but you’re at a point where you’re trying to quantify it and you’re trying to put a financial number to that value.
And it’s very, very complicated, but I think the market has spoken for the Cavs at this point in that the teams that have had cap space have used it on other people. They’ve gone a different direction. They’ve prioritized other skill sets or other players specifically.
So the Cavs have a ton of leverage at this point in time of the negotiations because he’s a restricted free agent. With that comes restrictions, emphasis on restricted free agent. And it’s a business decision when it comes to the Cavs.
So the sense that I get in talking to a lot of people around the NBA, I’m not sure what the offer is specifically that the Cavs have made to Isaac. They believe that it’s a fair offer. It’s a multi -year offer.
It’s what they think he’s worth based on the construction of this particular roster and based on the role that he’s going to have for this roster. so I don’t know exactly what the offer is that they have made, but the sense that I get in talking to people around the NBA. is that it’s a multi -year offer in the annual range of eight to 10 million.
And if it gets to a point where, you know, Isaac and his people are looking for multiple years around 12 to 15 million, right around the mid -level exception, that’s not a number that the Cavs would be comfortable with moving forward. It’s one thing to have them on a qualifying offer this year. Chris (03:18.
334) before the extensions kick in moving forward, before Karis Lavert’s contract comes up at the end of this year and like all those different things that are in play. So one year for Isaac Okoro at about $11 million, it’s something that the Cavs would do because it wouldn’t be prohibitive to anything that they would do in terms of other moves around the margins or things along those lines. It wouldn’t be restrictive.
to them and potential trades and taking salary back and all that kind of stuff that they’re trying to balance right now. But for multiple years at that kind of number, I don’t think the Cavs would go that direction. Not with the new rules that are in place, not with the new salary structure that’s in place.
I get the sense that the Cavs want to avoid moving into the future, paying anybody that’s not a starter that kind of money. And I think a lot of other teams are on the NBA, Ethan. are looking at it in a very similar way.
If your main guys in this new market are going to get 45 to 60 million annually, you can’t really afford to pay the seventh guy, the eighth guy, the ninth guy in a rotation, something between 10 and 12 million, something in the double digit million annually. And that’s the sense that I get from people that I’ve talked to throughout the last couple of days, just on where things stand with Ethan Sands (04:46.611) And Chris, we’ve talked about it, right? Like there is an opportunity for Isaac Okoro to accept the qualifying offer and kind of bet on himself, right? Go into a year knowing you’re going to be into free agency the next season and kind of bet on yourself and be like, well, I feel like I’m worth more than the eight to $10 million range for a multi -year contract.
And I want to go and see if I can prove that in this next season, right? We’ve seen players in other leagues be able to do that. Aaron Judge and Lamar Jackson are two. Chris (04:56.
114) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (05:16.517) that come to mind, right? But in basketball, in the NBA, it can go very wrong very quickly when it comes to those decisions, right? You look at Gary Trent Jr.
this past off season, looking at guys who have literally said and been quoted saying, I’ve gone from $200 million a year to the veteran minimum. And that’s how this league can swing at any moment. Obviously, Isaac’s not going to be on a veteran minimum because he hasn’t been in the league that long.
He could see himself fighting for regular minutes, regular opportunities if he doesn’t kind of, let’s say this, he has the option to bet on himself. And I’m not going to say that he shouldn’t do that, right? Because every guy has his pride. Everybody has their own reasons for doing things.
You understand what you think your worth is and all of those things. But also like, Sometimes you gotta choke down that pride and get the opportunities to stay in the NBA, because you know it’s a luxury. It’s not something that is just handed to you.
And Isaac Acora has worked for where he is now, but sometimes your head can get bigger than what the actual situation is. Chris (06:23.646) Yeah, that’s the thing, Ethan.
I think everybody has to honestly assess what would Isaac’s role be in our situation. And the Cavs in many ways have outgrown Isaac. At the time that they drafted him fifth overall in 2020, they were in a different position.
They were trying to assemble talent. They were trying to put a core in place. They could take a gamble and they could take a guy who was more of a raw developmental prospect.
All of sudden their timeline gets accelerated. They start growing internally. They trade for Donovan Mitchell and Isaac’s role is completely different.
So I just don’t know how many teams around the NBA would honestly look at him as a starting caliber wing, given the offensive flaws that he currently has. Given the fact that opponents ignore him constantly when he’s out on the perimeter, when he’s out at the three point line. Given the fact that opponents do not respect his outside He’s a really good cutter offensively.
He makes winning plays. One of the premier on the ball defenders in the NBA. He’s the Cavs best point of attack defender.
But again, you’ve reached a point here with him as a restricted free agent where you’re trying to put a value on what he does on a nightly basis. And you’re trying to do it from a financial standpoint. And it’s Because if you’re not a starting caliber player in today’s NBA with this new CBA, with the tax, with the first apron, with the second apron, with all of the penalties that come with that, if you’re not a starting caliber player, it’s going to be really, really hard to get the kind of money that some of these guys got three to five years ago, where you were getting all these middle of the road guys, all of these, you know, next in line coming off the bench guys.
They were getting like 15 to 18 million teams were spending wildly. It’s just not going to happen moving forward. These teams are going to be really, really judicious in terms of how much they spend.
And if you’re not going to be a starting caliber player, you’re just not somebody who a team is going to invest in, in a big way financially. So that’s something that I think Isaac is going to run into. And that doesn’t mean that everywhere he could go in the NBA.
Chris (08:45.586) would view him as the eighth or ninth guy in the rotation, maybe there is a team out there that sees him as more of like the sixth man, seventh man in a rotation, something like that. Not in that particular role, but just in the hierarchy of the team.
Well, that’s not the situation here in Cleveland. Here in Cleveland, he’s the eighth or ninth guy in the rotation. You just, you can’t pay everybody.
Right. And not everybody is going to get the exact contract that they feel like they’re worth. It just doesn’t work that way.
and if there’s no team out there that is willing to give Isaac that kind of contract that he believes he’s worth, that his people around him believe he’s worth, that then what are the calves supposed to do? Bit against themselves? They’re not going to do that. That’s not smart business. I think they view it We’re trying to do right by him.
We’re trying to take care of him by giving him multiple years, giving him security, giving him what they deem a fair offer. but I don’t think the, the annual salary is, is what Isaac was hoping for and what Isaac’s people were hoping for. But if, some other team out there is not giving it to Isaac, then why would the Cavs turn around and give it to them? They’re not going to.
They’re going to try and be smart when it comes to this team building. They’re going to try and be really, really cognizant of their spending into their future because of how expensive this roster is going to be in the next couple of years. Ethan Sands (10:23.
229) We’ve talked that length. We’ve talked that length about how Isaac Okoro is a, he’s a big part of this team, right? When it comes to the defensive end of the ball, right? And there’s been arguments in our subtext channel. There’s been conversations that we’ve had to have with multiple different people about why you have a more challenging light on Isaac Okoro than you might have on some of these other players.
Well, first and foremost, Chris (10:47.484) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (10:51.
211) Nobody else’s contract is on the line right now, right? We’re talking about the one player. That’s a restricted free agent We’re not talking about Isaiah Mobley because he’s already moved on right? That’s a conversation that we could have had if they were willing to give him a two -way or something like that Where there was even an offer on the table for him there wasn’t right Sam Merrill George Niai max truth all the guys that we’ve heard and talked about that we need to be more critical about right these guys Not under like contract scrutiny like they are under contract for when they’re under contract when those times come Where their contracts like up or about to be up those conversations are gonna be hat, right? Sure They all know that all of the guys on this roster including Donovan Mitchell feel like they need to be better this coming season we’re not saying that Isaac Okoro did something Made us be like, no, he’s cannot play in the NBA anymore. He doesn’t play on the Cavs.
Nothing like that No, he is a guy that adds value on the defensive end But he has things that he needs to work on Chris mentioned it three -point shooting being able to be confident He was guarded by a center in the playoffs for goodness gracious Like you cannot get played off the court and back -to -back years in the playoffs for a team that is trying to get further Chris (11:48.178) Right. No.
Chris (12:02.128) Mm. Ethan Sands (12:10.
127) in a conference that continues to get stronger. Like you talk about the Boston Celtics that brought back everybody dang near, everybody on their roster. Then you got the Philadelphia 76ers, the Milwaukee Bucks, the New York Knicks.
That’s four teams right there that are in front of them, right? And then Cavs fans were upset about how the season ended last year. Well, more than likely that it might end worse seating wise this coming year, right? And you need guys. Chris (12:10.
525) Mm. Chris (12:27.912) Yep.
Ethan Sands (12:37.287) to be able to play their role and be happy about their role to be able to have success, right? We saw Karis LaVert this past season who also has room to grow in multiple different areas, right? Karis LaVert accepted the six man role. He said, I am better coming off the bench.
I am better knowing that I am not going to be moving back and forth between the starting lineup and the backup unit. And I’m going to take advantage of that. Whenever you put me in the game, I’m going to take over like I’m not going to get back in the game, right? Isaac is not that.
He’s not looking for his shot. He knows he’s a defensive specialist. So He has room to grow defensively to right point of attack defending is great.
Do you get stronger? Are you able to guard the guys that we tried to put you on last playoffs, right but offensively is what we’re talking about for Isaac the Cora and it’s interesting Chris because There are so many different players and things that we can go into but right now it feels like the the microscope is on Isaac O ‘Coro and we ought to talk about whether or not his value is what it is because the Cavs literally said hey Ethan Sands (13:53.153) get it. But if not, don’t come asking for more from us if you think that that is what you’re worth and that’s not what other teams who have the cap space have the room have the opportunities for you to go and be the player that you think you are to go and get it.
Chris (14:09.15) Yeah. So the other thing, and you brought up Karras Laverne, I think that’s an interesting point because Karras is in the final year of his contract.
He’s making $16 million. I don’t think the Cavs are going to be able to bring him back next year. Especially at the number that he may command.
And he’s a starter quality player that is in a really, really important six man role. And he’s in that role based on the current roster construction and based on that being better for this team and Karis making that kind of sacrifice. But if that’s what’s going to be required to bring him back next offseason, I don’t think the Cavs are going to have room for him.
He is the only player that is not in the starting lineup for the Cavs, the every night starting lineup that is making double digit million annually. And the only reason that he’s making that is because it’s an expiring deal and it’s a deal that is not going to be prohibitive. until the bigger extensions kick in next off season, which is Donovan Mitchell, which is Evan Mobley.
But once those kick in and Donovan makes around 50 and Darius makes 40 and Jarrett makes 20 and Evan Mobley is going to make around 40, they might have to make a decision, Ethan, between Max Drews and Karis Levert. And if Karis is going to be a free agent, The decision might be made for them, but like with all of those high price salaries, you have to find a way to balance it out somehow. Jalen Tyson being on a rookie team friendly contract.
That’s going to help Craig Porter Jr. Same thing. The salary situation when it comes to Dean Wade, that’s going to help offset it.
That’s going to help balance some things out. But with Karis Laverg. Like it’s a bigger role than what Isaac would have, especially in this system with this head coach.
So if Isaac’s going to get 18 to 22 minutes a night, you in today’s NBA simply cannot afford to pay that guy what it is that Isaac’s going to want. And if they, if they are operating under this assumption and under this belief, and I believe that the Cavs are. Chris (16:36.
456) because they’re really, really smart and they’ve done their research on this sort of thing and they’ve balanced the salary cap as best they can and they’ve thought forward to the future and what it’s going to look like next off season and the off season after that. And if they’re under the assumption that we’re not going to have room even to resign Karis if it’s going to be in that number that he’s currently under right now, then how could they possibly give Isaac Okoro something that is in that neighborhood, not in the same development, but in that Ethan Sands (17:15.455) I mean looking at the salaries and how that’s gonna impact everyone and then you come back to What people think that the Cavs are gonna lose and what they would lose with if they did not have Isaac Okoro on this team Which as you mentioned earlier the best point of attack defender on the Cavs, right? feeling that for this new Kenny Atkinson -Reyyan team, it’s gonna be get out and transition anyway, right? So you leave the best player for every team and you say, hey, if you beat us, you beat us.
Everybody else on your team ain’t getting nothing. Nothing. And then you have Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, Dean Wade.
grabbing boards and pushing the pace and all of those things, if one of those players that’s supposed to have one of the best shooting nights against Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell doesn’t show up, that’s more opportunities off the glass, that’s more opportunities for them to run and create offensive opportunities that wouldn’t be there if Isaac O ‘Cora was there, right? Because you have the understanding that you have somebody else on the offensive floor, Max Struths, Karras LeVert, who would be able to contribute more so on the offensive end. when it comes to consistency, right? Because sure, Isaac was, he played decent in the regular season. He didn’t play great, he played good, he played decent in the regular season.
But when it comes to the playoffs, and that’s what we’re talking about now, playoffs, and I don’t understand the arguments that has been made with some YouTube listeners or subtexters or whatever that are like, why are you only honing in on the playoffs? If you were to listen to Chris since the beginning of last year, they don’t really need to kind of chase wins at this point, right? They are a team that feels like they’re going to be playing and above in every season right now with this roster, right? So that’s looking at the playoffs. Who can contribute? That’s why you went and got Max Truce. That’s why you went and got George Nia.
Guys that had that experience. Sure. Did they play like that? No.
Ethan Sands (19:23.279) Again, why this is not just an Isaac O ‘Coro hate bait, nothing like that. It’s we need people, or the Cavs need people to be able to consistently contribute on the offense event.
And we talked about it at the end of the playoff. We shined a light on everybody that played badly. Right? George Yang, Max Drews, Karrison Rear could have been better.
Isaac O ‘Coro surely could have been better. Right? Everybody. But, so Chris, that’s that.
Right, that’s the idea of Coral Situation. Obviously we touched on Kara’s Levert’s situation as well and how that could be another conversation we’re having next year. depending on how Max Drews plays and how Kara’s Levert plays this season, who they might want to rather have.
But I feel like, like you said, that decision could already be made for them. But we talked about. Chris (20:12.
06) Yeah. Or they just go through, the next couple of months, they get into training camp. they get into the first portion of the regular season and they consider the possibility of moving carers because Jalen Tyson is ready for a bigger role by the time that the trade deadline rolls around or somebody else emerges, from the backend of the rotation that they want to try and get more consistent minutes for.
I’m not saying that’s exactly what they’re going to do. I’m not saying that that’s their plan. but I do think.
In today’s NBA, expiring contracts are going to be valuable again, and Karis being on an expiring contract, on top of the fact that he can help a team. He could start, he could come off the bench. He can guard multiple positions.
if the Cavs get a sense that they’re not going to be able to afford him beyond this year. and, they can maybe get an asset or two back in return for Karis ahead of the trade deadline. That’s definitely something that I think they would consider.
I would think. that they would consider moving him this off season if they find the right deal, if they find the right package, what does it look like when you put Caris Levert and Dean Wade together in a package? What does that bring you back? What does it look like if you put Caris Levert and a couple of future second round picks in a package together? What does that bring you back and how does that help your team? Does it enhance your roster? Does it make you worse? Those are all things that they’re going to consider, but I think Caris is definitely a name to watch and a name to pay attention to throughout the remainder of this transaction season. And as we’re into the first part of the regular season and as we get closer and closer to the trade deadline, because like I said, I think there’s an understanding that affording him and bringing him back for multiple years beyond this one is probably unlikely, maybe even improbable.
So if you have an opportunity, to get a few assets back in return and you feel like you can afford to lose him because you have other guys that are ready to step into that role or provide something similar to what Karis is providing, then I think the Cavs would certainly explore that. Now, if it’s a situation where Jalen Tyson isn’t ready and they don’t feel like there’s somebody else that is capable of stepping into that role or something, Chris (22:31.166) They’re not going to make their team worse in a win now situation.
They’re not going to make their team worse, significantly worse just for future draft capital or something along those lines. But it’s just something that I think Cavs fans need to pay attention to because of the realities of this new CBA, because of the first apron, because of the second apron, and because of how the salaries are going to be structured in the NBA moving forward with You know, guys in the middle class in a harsh way, kind of screwed. Like all of the big money is going to go to the star player.
Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, Darius Garland. They’re going to command so much of the Cavs salary to begin with. Just their salary cap space.
So how do you put together a competitive team? I mean, look at the Denver Nuggets. They win the NBA championship and they can’t bring back Cantavious Caldwell Pope. Right.
They win the NBA championship and they can’t bring back Bruce Brown, you know, because of the high price salary guys that they have. and because of the restrictions when it comes to these new rules in the NBA. so when the Cavs get super expensive at the top, somebody else is going to suffer because of And I think that’s what you’re going to see moving Ethan Sands (23:59.
865) And you mentioned Jaylen Tyson kinda, because we talked about this already on the podcast, Jaylen Tyson potentially taking Caris Laverte’s spot and also being a little bit bigger than Caris Laverte and sliding into the small forward roll while also being able to bring the ball up. Like that’s just a dynamic that you want to see him grow into, right? Like even maybe having a higher ceiling than Caris Laverte when it comes to his career, but also understanding that Jaylen Tyson came into the season, came into his opening press and said, well, I want to get minutes. I want to be all defensive to you.
And to do that, you have to play in a certain amount of games. it’s just such an interesting dynamic. And I don’t think he’s an I told you so kind of guy.
But I feel like if he were to get the minutes that he felt like he worked for, he said, I told y I was coming. I told y I was working for it. But Chris, we talked about winning, right? We talked about.
Chris (24:45.16) Mm -hmm. Chris (24:51.
838) Yeah. Ethan Sands (24:56.847) records and how that can impact the playoffs and things like that.
Well, Yachtmakers have come out with their predictions for what the teams will have by the end of the season when it comes to wins. And I think it’s kind of interesting. Cavs not so much because of what they had last year.
Obviously, the Cavs ended up with 48 wins. They have the Cavs ranked at 48 .5, I believe, on almost all of the sites.
They’re 47 .5 on one of these sites. don’t even know what that is.
They’re 47 .5, 48 .5, 47 .
5, 47 .5, 47 .5, 47 .
5, right? that’s the magic number is seeing that they can get back to 48 with the same team and the harder conference, all that jazz, right? Then you got other teams that have higher expectations, obviously, right? Here’s what the wins column looked like for each team in last year at the top of the Eastern Conference. The Boston Celtics had 64 wins, the New York Knicks had 50 wins, the Milwaukee Bucks had 49 wins, the Cavs had 48 wins, and the Magic and the Pacers, both Magic Pacers and 76ers, all had 47 wins. So, if you’re looking at the hierarchy of this, a lot of the drafts, a lot of The Nix at 53 .
5 all around that’s the unanimous number from all the sites that I’m looking at right now so that’s three wins more than what they had last year almost four wins more. 76ers are listed at 52 .5 that’s a unanimous number for the sites that I’m looking at.
five, six games more than what they had last year, right? And then you got the bucks with 51, 51 .5 and 50 .5.
Those are the two numbers that I’m seeing and the magic at 47 .5 as the unanimous number. So they got the magic kind of evened out with the calves and then the Pacers are at 46 .
5 and 47 .5 because remember we talked about the ESPN. Ethan Sands (27:23.
311) top list of where they thought the teams were in the NBA and the Cavs were right number 10, right? And so they have to compete with five other teams in the Eastern Conference that were in the top 10 of that list, right? Chris, what do you think about the numbers and the odds makers and how they have the Cavs position right now in the Eastern Conference? Chris (27:47.87) First off, I think it’s about right. if you think about where they finished last year, and there were so many different things that the Cavs dealt with last year in terms of injury, in terms of guys, not playing up to expectations in terms of, some choppiness at the beginning of the season.
There are a lot of different things that contributed to the Cavs finishing with 48 wins in the regular season. and I think we totally understand that, but at the same time, This isn’t a team that has done anything major this off season. If they’re going to take the next step, a big part of that is going to be their health.
How does Donovan Mitchell look for all 82? How does Darius Garland, Evan Mobley? Evan Mobley played 50 games last year. Darius Garland missed six weeks. So number one, if they stay healthy, that’s one variable that plays into them maybe overachieving or topping the projected win total that they have.
But beyond that, I mean so much of this is going to be, okay, Kenny Atkinson first year as head coach for the Cavs. What does he get out of this offense that J .B.
Bickerstaff couldn’t? How does it look with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell in year three with a new coach in a new system with different ideas? How does it look between Jared Allen and Evan Mobley together? in this new system with a new coach, a more diverse offense, a more creative offense, different kinds of usage spread throughout. Those things are going to contribute to whether or not they can top their projected win total. But usually the biggest change is going to come because there was something significant that happened to a team and nothing significant happened for the Cavs beyond a new coach.
And we’ve talked about it on this podcast. How do you quantify How much, how much is a coach really worth in today’s NBA? How much does he mean to the success of a team? What does that do for a win total? That’s not Paul George going to a team. That’s a coach.
So how do you quantify that? How do you put that into perspective? You know what I mean? So when you’re talking about a blockbuster trade, when you’re talking about a big free agency pickup, when you’re talking about a draft pick in the lottery or in the top five. Chris (30:17.406) Those are the things that are going to swing that total a little bit.
A new coach in the 20th overall pick who’s probably not going to be in the rotation coming out of training camp. Why would you project something significantly more than what happened last year? 48 wins. That’s a good number.
That’s a good number to be set at. I think if you’re talking about evaluating the Cavs, can they pass that? Sure. I mean, I think there’s a pathway.
for them to be better than that. But there’s another thing in play here, Ethan. It is going to be a war in the Eastern Conference just to avoid the play -in tournament.
Think about it. Miami’s not going anywhere. Nobody expects Miami just to, you know, lay down and say, all right, not having it for us.
They’ve got pride, they’ve got a culture, they’ve got arguably the best coach in the NBA. They’ve got Bam, they’ve got Jimmy, they’ve got Tyler Hero, they’ve got a talented roster, and they’re probably not going to deal with the same stuff that they had to deal with last year too. So, if we’re looking at all these different teams in the Eastern Conference, you know, Boston, New York, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Orlando, Indiana, Philly, Miami, that’s seven teams right there.
I mean, that’s eight teams right there, actually. Eight that I just rattled off. Including the Cavs.
There are only six guaranteed locked in playoff spots And and just because something happens one way In one year, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to transfer over to another year But like I don’t think Orlando is going anywhere. I Think if anything, they’re going to continue to ascend. I think they’re going to benefit greatly from the playoff experience that they got this past season.
think they’re going to benefit greatly from some of the veterans that they brought in, including NBA champion, Candelvia’s Caldwell Pope. I don’t think Indiana’s going anywhere. I think they’re going to continue to get their chemistry together and Pascal Siakam and Tyrese Halliburton playing more games together.
And if Tyrese Halliburton can stay healthy for the entire season, we understand how formidable they are. New York, Milwaukee, Boston, Philadelphia. Chris (32:38.
63) So, I mean, just getting one of the top six seeds in the Eastern Conference is going to be brutally difficult. And that plays into the Cavs win total as well, because they’re going to have to play all these teams a bunch of different times. And people think that maybe Atlanta will have a rebound.
So when you’re talking about the depth in the Eastern Conference and the teams that are so good that the Cavs are going to have to contend with, that’s going to make it difficult for anybody to rack up 50 to 55 wins. Because it could be a situation where they just beat up on each other. Ethan Sands (33:24.
387) And we’ve talked about this a couple of times, Chris, right? Like when it comes to how the schedule is gonna pan out, right? Like if the schedule comes out like it did last year and there’s a week or a couple of weeks where the Cavs feel like they can just take advantage of their opponent, they need to do that, right? Like even with Evan Mobley and Darius Garland out, they were able to take advantage of what we consider to be an advantageous matchup for majority of those games, right? And now that looks a lot harder because some of those advantageous matchups even have added their own key pieces, right? Like the Detroit Pistons who won 14 games last year. Who knows? They got guys now that they got rid of Killian Hayes. Chris (33:58.
12) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (34:18.319) They got new guys on that roster.
Who knows, right? But also you think about other players, other teams, like the Atlanta Hawks, Chicago Bulls, Brooklyn Nets, Toronto Raptors. Like all of these teams are seemingly in rebuild mode, but you never want to count them out. And sometimes teams can get caught saying, well, we’re going up against this team tonight.
Don’t really need to try all that hard. It’s not the case. especially when you look at injuries and things throughout the season and chemistry and camaraderie and all of those things that play into an NBA game, not just what you see on paper.
And we talked about this on the last podcast, Chris, right? Paul George has a reputation for going to teams, creating quote unquote super teams and them kind of fizzling out. And right now the expectation is for them to have a bigger role. Chris (34:48.
328) Mm -hmm. Ethan Sands (35:16.525) this next season and be able to contribute and also get further into the Eastern Conference playoffs.
But that’s all said if because of what’s on paper, not because of what has anything happened, not experience or anything like that. It’s can Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Moley, Jared Allen and anybody else you want to name stifle that team because of what they have already built together. Right.
that’s why, Kobe Altman, Kenny Atkinson, everybody basically in the organization for the calves that we’ve talked to has been like, this is year three of the experiment. This is year three of the core four. And this is why we want to keep it together because you keep growing as a unit Chris (36:05.
374) Here’s the nervy thing when it comes to the Cavs and it’s kind of the harsh truth. If you think back to last year, Ethan took 47 wins to get into the playoffs to avoid the play -in tournament. So if they’re set at 47 and a half, Vegas is really good at this.
Not saying that they get everything right, but there’s a reason why there are all those shiny buildings in Vegas. They’re pretty good at this. do their research.
They talk to as many people as possible. They crunch the numbers and all that kind of stuff. They’re pretty good at setting these odds.
So if the Cavs are being set at 47 and a half, 48 and a half, that’s right around where they finished last year. But it’s also right around what it took to get to the playoffs. It may take more than that this year because of the improvements that the 76ers made.
Because the Cavs probably aren’t going to be dealing with the same stuff that they dealt with last year because the Miami Heat aren’t going to be dealing with the same stuff that they dealt with last year. There are so many different variables that could change this, but at the end of the day, when you think about the talent in the East and the teams that that loaded up and got better this off season, I don’t know. It’s always hard to predict these things.
Because stuff happens in the NBA, especially during the course of an 82 game season. Ethan, I don’t know if 47 is going to get you a locked in playoff spot this coming year. It might take 49 or 50 to get a locked in playoff spot.
And one of these eight teams, Boston, New York, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Orlando, Indiana, Philly, Miami, two of those teams actually, hashtag math, two of those teams are going to be going to the play -in That is wild to think about that. They’re going to have to play their way into the playoffs through the play -in tournament only to face, if they get out of that play -in tournament, only to face Boston, New York, Philly, Milwaukee, whoever it is that’s at the top of the Eastern Conference. That is a nervy, nervy situation.
Chris (38:28.382) and a nervy reality, think, for the Cavs, given everything that they’re trying to accomplish and given everything that they’re going to deem a success coming into this season. It’s not about winning 47 games in the regular season, but the regular season’s going to matter from the standpoint, it’s not going to be the judgment for success, but it’s going to matter in terms of can they avoid the play -in Can they get a locked in playoff spot? It’s certainly not going to be easy.
And it wasn’t easy last year either. But I think it’s going to be even more difficult this year just given the roster enhancements that a lot of these teams made this off season. Ethan Sands (39:19.
663) Chris, maybe this team does go ahead and chase some wins this next season because every win’s gonna count when it comes to playoff seeding and if they can avoid that play -in tournament. But with all that being said, I think that’s a great place to wrap up. So that’s where we’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast.
But remember, Chris (39:24.335) Yeah. Ethan Sands (39:45.
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