CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. Today we break down the slumping Guardians as they approach next week’s MLB trade deadline, and what they might need to do to get more production at shortstop and starting pitcher.
And Terry says there’s one player the need to promote right away. We also talk about the Cavs , and one player who impressed and one who didn’t in NBA Summer League. We also get into what kind of craziness and approaches the NFL’s new kickoff rules might create as the Browns head down to training camp Thursday in West Virginia.
Highlights: Listeners really don’t like the sports cliche “running downhill”; Congratulations to cleveland.com and Plain Dealer reporter Paul Hoynes on being a finalist for the Baseball Writers Association of America Lifetime Achievement Award; The shortstop position: What should the Guardians do with it? Matthew Boyd needs to be called up now; The trade deadline is approaching: money capital vs. talent capital; Terry’s take on Evan Mobley’s contract extension; One Cavs player who impressed, one who didn’t at NBA Summer League; This podcast was taped before Amari Cooper reported to camp, but we discussed why his presence at training camp is crucial for the Browns to develop chemistry and timing with Deshaun Watson; Who’ll end up calling plays for the offense? Why Olympic bronze medalists are happier than silver medalists: what a study suggested; Listeners share stories of autographs and foul balls, including a brush with Nolan Ryan; Terry recommends the book “Back Channel” by Stephen L.
Carter, a novel based on the Cuban Missile Crisis. Here’s the podcast for this week. If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here : You can email any foul ball stories or autograph stories, or comments or questions you may have about the podcast, to sports@cleveland.
com , and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line. Want to keep up with everything Terry is writing? Check out his new weekly newsletter, which comes out every Wednesday and is available only to subscribers. You can find previous podcasts below.
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Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gambler. David Campbell (00:02.796) Hey everybody, welcome to this week’s Terry’s Talking Podcast.
I’m David Campbell, your host. I am joined by Terry Pluto, award -winning columnist from The Plain Dealer and Cleveland .com.
How you doing, Terry? Terry Pluto (00:13.01) I am doing well. David Campbell (00:15.
232) I have learned something about Terry’s talk in listeners over these last few months when we asked people to write in about sports cliches they hate. hate listeners hate downhill running downhill. keep getting emails about it.
This is the last one I’m going to read, but it’s from Bill Maris. Bill Maris in Medina says, gentlemen, thank you so much for your efforts with the podcast every week. I truly enjoy it.
It provides me with a lighthearted break as I go between my patient visits as a hospice chaplain in Medina. Terry Pluto (00:18.931) Yes.
Terry Pluto (00:30.473) glad. David Campbell (00:44.
472) The sports cliches that we hate segment is lot of fun. one I currently find hard to hear is a coach stating that a player is so good. He makes the opposition feel he is quote running downhill for crying out loud.
It’s a level playing field or floor. There is no downhill. I very much enjoy Terry’s writing the faith in you columns, particularly the ones lately after about life after death had been penetrating.
Keep up the good work. You guys are knocking it out of the park. I just wish the guardians could do more of the And again, that’s from Bill Maris in Medina.
So thanks for that, Bill, and best of luck with your important work there. All right. Terry Pluto (01:10.
686) Well Terry Pluto (01:15.197) Well, I have one. I haven’t heard this for a while, but it is one of my almost as bad as the best version of yourself, know, the best version or whatever.
It is this. Well, they say, well, you know, when we’re talking about like the Stephen Kwame’s, the Josh Naylor’s, in other words, you have a single guy, but like there’s plural. David Campbell (01:37.
215) There’s many of them. It’s a category. It’s like wide receiver Terry Pluto (01:38.
855) Yeah, no, there’s one Stephen Kwan and there’s one this you don’t have a whole bunch of these guys David Campbell (01:46.606) Well, that’s a good one. And you hear that a lot.
And I did want to tell people, if you have more of these, want to send them in, us at sports at cleveland .com. We’ll kind of drop them in as we can.
I did want to mention, Terry, I know we’re going to start with the Guardians today and we have a lot of Cavs and Browns to get to. But speaking of people who are one of a kind, Paul Hoynes, our colleague, has been recognized as a finalist by the Baseball Writers Association of America for their Lifetime Achievement Award. This is a big deal.
Terry Pluto (01:53.148) Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (02:03.
996) Yes. David Campbell (02:13.74) They will announce the winner in December and the other finalists are Tom Boswell of the Washington Post.
Anybody who knows baseball knows the name of Tom Boswell and also Bruce Jenkins, another great writer from the San Francisco Chronicle. Hoynzy is in with those two guys and that is some company and you know, the vote will be in December. whoever wins will be honored at the Hall of Fame next year during ceremonies there.
It’s a really prestigious award and just wanted to say congratulations to Hoynzy. So just wanted to mention that. Yep.
Terry Pluto (02:42.303) I am, yes, I mean, amazing. He’s 73, he still does this.
I don’t know how he does it. And I did baseball for five and a half years and major league baseball. And it was by far the hardest thing I ever covered simply because there’s so many games, the games are so long and rain delays, that kind of stuff.
And it was before the internet. Where now you have to just keep writing, writing, writing. And the fact that Paul has such energy and freshness to it is remarkable.
And he’s got this great sense of humor about it. So I hope this time comes, you know, I believe the Clevelanders are people from Northeast Ohio in the Hall of Fame. know Sheldon Oaker is in, Hal Webelwitz I believe is in, Gordon Koboldek.
And I think that’s it in terms of writers. David Campbell (03:39.65) Well, fingers crossed that Hoynsey can join that group and it’s a pleasure to work with him every day and we’re really lucky and I know know Guardians fans are lucky to be able to read them.
Terry Pluto (03:42.908) Yes. Terry Pluto (03:47.
039) And sometimes you get on the ballot and then you get in. know Tom Hamilton has been on the ballot a couple of times for the broadcasting wing. So hopefully the bell will ring for Tom also.
I remember what, mean, Hoying’s actually replaced me on the baseball beat. That’s how far back it goes. No, was right.
It was 1925. Towards the end of Trist speaker. Feels like it sometimes.
David Campbell (04:06.734) 1983, right? Was was Hoinsie’s first season? Hahaha! Terry Pluto (04:17.215) but actually Paul was doing the beat for the previous couple years for the the News Herald the Luria Chronicle that whole chain and so But he and he broke in I believe doing football for the Cleveland Press So and of course he played rugby David Campbell (04:38.
19) Yes, he did. Well, best of luck, Hoynsey, and it’s a tremendous honor. Even being a finalist is really something.
So, all right, on to the Guardians on the field. Terry, what is your scale of concern here from one to 10? They have come out of the break, not in a great way. The hitting has gone away.
What are you seeing from the Guardians right now and what do think they can do to kind of get things back on track here? Terry Pluto (05:05.695) Well, I remember Mike Hargrove once said, I’m not worried, but I’m concerned. He never did explain the difference.
guess worried is like they might fire me tomorrow. That might be that the difference concerned is like, I don’t like how this is going at all. And I don’t like how this is going at all.
think they’ve lost now 14 of the last 22. And I was just looking at a couple of things where, uh, yeah, we were dwelling on the starting pitching and that, but you know, starting pitching has not been that bad lately. I’m not saying it’s great, but it’s not been the main reason they struggle.
They just can’t score. And here’s one for you, David Fry. His last homer was when Dave Campbell? David Campbell (05:50.
303) I’m going to say June 30th. Wow, really? Terry Pluto (05:53.887) How about May 31st? 110 at bats since then he’s batting 227, zero homers, seven RBIs.
So that’s, I mean, it’s not just pile on David Fry. I mean, Stephen Kwan finally has kind of come back to actually below his usual standard since July. He’s sitting 261, 654 OPS, couple of homers.
That’s not a big surprise, but you know, for a while you had four guys, four guys having career years. Kwan was one, even Jose who’s great as he’s been that this was by far the best, like first half he’s had in his career. When you look at where he is in RBI.
So remember he used to be, yeah, he used to be slow. Remember it always like he is Carlos Santana. He’d be waiting for the weather to warm up.
So they would warm up. David Campbell (06:42.127) He got his 80th RBI last night, didn’t he? Terry Pluto (06:51.
827) Josh Naylor was having a career year and David Frye was having a career year. So you have four guys in your lineup having career years. And right now, know, some of that, the steam comes out of it.
So I don’t have any great answers, but you know, the problem, every week I tell Earl Weaver stories. So another one, I Weaver was the first one to tell me, along with last week was the Earl Weaver, you know, we’re not the NFL, we do this every day story with a lot adjectives in between, talking about like the year that I covered them in 79, they won 102 games and they had a five game losing streak and some other things there. But, you know, Weaver would say the thing that makes you look really bad, unless you’re making a bunch of errors in the field.
So that, that, that’s one thing that, but he says you’re not hitting, you look dead because nothing’s happening. And so he said it isn’t like they’re not trying or whatever, but they’re watching the same game that the fans are watching. Only they’re part of it and they just can’t seem to get anything going.
it really is, it’s like the play hard, the hard nineties, strapping, scoring runs is a good virus. Well, this is a bad one right David Campbell (08:14.222) Well, and the guardians, what did they have 10 or 12 hits last night in the loss to Detroit? We’re taping this on Tuesday afternoon, but like, think only one of them was an extra base hit and Hoyze had an interesting thing today, Terry, like the guardians success this season offensively has been predicated on loading a lineup up to beat the starter every day, going deep in counts, getting the starters pitch count up, getting them out of the game.
And then, you know, the guardians hope have a lead, go after the bullpen and keep the pressure on. Terry Pluto (08:19.613) Yeah.
Yeah. Terry Pluto (08:33.107) Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (08:43.918) Poinsett added up some numbers today. Listen to these.
10 of their last 11 games, the opposing starter has pitched at least six innings while holding the guardians to three or fewer runs. In the last eight games, the starters on the other team have gone seven and one with a 1 .12 ERA.
They’ve allowed 43 hits and 11 walks while striking out 53 in 64 innings. So I mean, they’re not getting to these starters. Terry Pluto (09:06.
484) Yeah. David Campbell (09:08.962) the way they have been in the first half of the season.
that’s, you know, like, look at last night into the seventh inning, they couldn’t, they couldn’t get them out. And, they have to, they have to get back to extending these at bats, drawing walks, getting that pitch count up. And that’s easier said than done.
I mean, if anybody, if you can get on base, you get on base, but that’s, a new one. me, did I just say one? Terry Pluto (09:27.785) I have a new cliche.
Yes, you did. Easier said than done. Right now, because I used to say it and somebody called me on it, is he says something like, your teeth is easier said than done.
know, waking up and then everything is easier said than done, unless you have the ability. yeah, but it’s a good thought though. It’s like, yeah, unlike, man, now the book of Genesis, David Campbell (09:36.
269) Ugh. David Campbell (09:49.044) It is.
Well, let me rephrase that. Terry Pluto (09:56.777) God spoke and there was water.
that’s...
So we’re adding that. but so what basically..
. And you know what? No, I am interrupting, but I’m doing an Earl Weaver thing here. So then, okay.
Because Earl, after he would slam you, then he would kind of ask a question or whatnot. And then he would say, well, okay. Sometimes we say easier said than done, because we really don’t want to look at the David Campbell (09:59.
886) Alright, well let me rephrase that then. So you can sit in a dog out, yeah. Yeah.
Okay, go. David Campbell (10:28.406) Alright, so what do you think is the problem, Terry Pluto (10:29.
757) Yeah, I do think that, I wonder about David Fry. First of all, I know I’m going back to him, but remember he hurt his elbow several weeks ago. And if that is, it’s his right arm, cause it was a throwing arm, cause he stopped catching since then.
And I don’t know if that’s impacted his swing or if David Fry has gone back to being the marginal guy that’s hung on. And I also believe I wrote this column, during the also break and I got some pushback from some fans or whatever, because I said, for the first time this season, the team is dealing with pressure and for the first time, so was the manager. And I’m listening to, and some of the fans are becoming annoyed by it.
Understand it’s like every day you do think that the guardians were facing, you know, whether Randy Johnson, Cy Young pick your favorite all time pitcher, but fell, weren’t as prime. Cause it’s like, I mean, they’ve been tipping our hat so much, you know, they’re going to be playing without hats to this pitcher. You have to find a way to beat some of these guys.
And like you talked about the going deeper in the counts and things. I think that some of this is, is, is they’re dealing with some pressure now. There’s some expectations on them and it probably started a couple of weeks ago.
David Campbell (11:48.216) Yeah, with those kind of decline before the all star break. let, let, let me go back and explain what I meant earlier before I use a cliche.
So you know, you’re, you’re, you’re up at bat and you’re trying to get deep in the comp. You’re facing scuba last night and one of the best pitches in the league. All right.
It’s not easy to get deep into account with a guy who’s throwing up her nineties with all the stuff that he has. Terry Pluto (11:51.134) Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (11:59.934) Yep. Terry Pluto (12:07.
528) Yes. David Campbell (12:11.702) I think that the guardians, I think you’re right, Terry.
They’ve started to squeeze the bats a little bit. And I think they need to go back to what they do best, which is not trying to win the game with one swing and getting walks and stealing bases and getting back to that get on base and keep the line moving approach. I think they did a little bit of that last night.
They couldn’t get the big hit to get the runs across, but that’s what they need to get back to. And guys, they can’t start to press because if they start to press, they’re going to start chasing swings. Terry Pluto (12:15.
677) Mm -hmm. David Campbell (12:40.918) And this team is going to become something that they shouldn’t try to be.
So there, I think I did all that without a cliche. Terry Pluto (12:46.143) No, you really know it is.
David, and actually that’s good. Cause you opened a thing on my, uh, on my end, Tyler Freeman got a couple of hits, you know, went through the opposite field. Jose got a hit to the opposite field.
Uh, meanwhile, a couple of these guys took fastballs right down the middle for Carl’s truck. You have to go up and figure, all right, scoobles really good, but he’s going to throw me a fastball at some point. And it’s going to be fast.
It’s going to be 97. I’ll look for And if I get beat on a change up or something, fine. And it just seemed, they always talk about the hitting group and the planning and all that.
Some of the guys had it, but others did not. So I’m curious to see. And the fact is the central division is good.
We, you know, we can’t, when I looked at it over the weekend, I haven’t seen the last few days. They had three of the top six records in the American league. Yeah, it’s getting.
David Campbell (13:42.702) It’s like the AFC North in football. Terry Pluto (13:45.
791) to be a, and remember they’re playing fewer games within the division. It’s just not about beating up on each other. In fact, the guardians are going to blow this until they start, if they keep playing their division like they are, because I think they’re only like one game over 500 within the division.
You’ve got to dominate this division to win David Campbell (14:04.344) Well, we’ll see how they adjust here. We do need to get into the short stuff thing, but I am looking for Stephen vote was talking about how teams are really hitting them with changeups and they’re going to be working on that, spoiling those pitches, not swinging at changeups out of them and keeping, keeping back on those.
It’s, it’s hard, but like that’s the big adjustment. I think they’re going to try and make here is. Terry Pluto (14:12.
892) Yep. Terry Pluto (14:23.911) That’s why I mentioned look for the fastball.
Your early in account, look for the fastball. They throw you a change up, it. Because half of those pitches also are out of the strike zone that they’re swinging at.
They’re, especially the left -handed hitters, the right -handers throw, they have a way of throwing these changeups now the last several years. It’s almost like a slow screwball in the old days. In other words, it goes the opposite way.
It acts almost like a curveball to a left -handed David Campbell (14:29.336) Take it or follow it off. Terry Pluto (14:52.
884) it goes away into the dirt. make them, you know, make them bring it up for that. still the old.
The old deal is if you don’t hit a half fastball very well in the big leagues, you’re not going to last. So you better be ready for it. David Campbell (15:08.
91) All right. Well, speaking of someone who did not hit a fastball last night, Brian Rokeo 0 for 4 against the Tigers last night, four strikeouts and Hoynzy Paul Hoyns, he texted this to our sub tech subscribers. Go to cleveland .
com slash guardians. Click on the blue banner at the top. If you’d like to become a sub tech subscriber, quick ad.
He saw Rokeo cleaning out his locker and might be headed for Columbus. Terry, you are Chris Antonetti for a day today. What are you doing at shortstop? Terry Pluto (15:11.
273) What? David Campbell (15:38.434) today when you go to the ballpark? Who’s playing shortstop and who would you bring Terry Pluto (15:44.913) Angel Martinez will go to shortstop.
On help, Martinez, excuse me. I would put Freeman back in center. And bringing up, I mean, they may bring up Tanya, maybe they’re gonna play Tanya.
He’s the one that’s been hitting down there. Terry Pluto (16:02.537) I mean, another David Campbell (16:02.
734) And real quick, Tanya is hitting, I think, 289 in Columbus this season. 60 RBI and an 833 OPS. I think I had that in my notes here.
Sonia, go ahead. Sorry, I just wanted to throw that Terry Pluto (16:06.035) He’s got some power.
Terry Pluto (16:11.103) Mm -hmm. Yeah.
I mean, the other thought is, you know, because I don’t want to give up on this guy. I haven’t watched the last week or two. You know, they went once with Kyle Manzaro and then they’ve been sorting through others.
I might go back to him. Let him DH and see how that goes. Remember, you know, the whole thing is 85 % of these guys fail the first time they come to the majors to stay in the majors.
So there’s no. certainly any shame or any reason to write off these guys. you liked Manzardo when you traded for him and he’s hit pretty well at AAA.
We could check the numbers as we’re talking. And I know they’re always want right -handed bats or this or that, but why not do that? I don’t expect them to do that, but I would give it serious David Campbell (17:09.592) Tanya has been hitting of late down in Columbus.
think they had their all -star break too, I think at some point here. so I don’t know, maybe we will see him or it’ll just be a straight swap or maybe it’ll go your route. I’m not sure.
Terry Pluto (17:21.407) My guess is it’s tenure. I’m just saying I’m offering a counter theory.
Yeah, a counter theory. so that would be, I mean, right now at Columbus, Manzardo’s hitting 283. The OPS is 969, 13 homers.
So, you know, you could, I’d look at that and see. David Campbell (17:27.894) Another solution? Terry Pluto (17:51.
057) So it’s, you know, it’s one of those where they got to try something. David Campbell (18:00.118) All right, let’s see.
So Terry Pluto (18:02.513) All right, now shortstop, what would you do David? I’ll throw it to David Campbell (18:09.39) The thing is, like, I think Tanya probably deserves a shot at this point to see what he can do.
And you don’t want to sacrifice defense when you’re not hitting the ball. So I’m wondering if it is going to be Tanya. think it might be.
And I have no inside information on that. I’m just guessing. But I think they’d like to give him a little bit of a reward for what he’s been doing.
Terry Pluto (18:35.643) Well, watch, isn’t interesting how, the major league is just shoot up these hitters who are doing well in Columbus. And it happens by the way, all the way around baseball.
every year seems like I hear some scout telling me the gap between double and triple A is bigger than ever. And they may actually mean they may not be a cliche. That may be true.
You know, she didn’t even started fast and now he’s, you know, he’s fading. I don’t particularly like him at short that much either. And so the reason I said, Martinez is maybe Freeman starting to come around.
There was a reason. And also there was that ball in center field. It was hard hit, but, Martinez didn’t get a good jump on it, went over his head.
And then there was another ball where Martinez, remember he, he just tried to dive at it yesterday and it bounced up past them. It was like a little league home run, you know, that there’s nobody back there just rolling forever. And he really should have played it on a hop to be fair to Martinez.
He has been a career infielder. I have not seen enough of him to know how good he is at shortstop. I just know he’s played a lot of shortstop.
Also that guy’s a, that guy’s an athlete. I I want him in the field. I want him in the lineup somewhere.
David Campbell (19:54.87) I do think there might be a point here, Terry, they’ve been moving guys around so much and the lineup has been changing. I just wonder if they just need to kind of settle on some guys and let them play for a week.
You know what saying? instead of change, just let’s let a guy play a position for an extended period and get this defense set. yeah, so we’ll see if they do that. They obviously are thinking about all this.
Terry Pluto (20:00.09) Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (20:12.
539) Not a bad idea. And David, know he, excuse me, know that, well, excuse me, Vought has that theory of I want everybody to play in a series. I would just make that a request rather than kind of a mandate in his mind.
So in the start of spring training, you decided Tyler Freeman was your center fielder. Go back to Tyler Freeman being your center fielder. Defensively, he was very good.
He proved he could do it. The reason you put him in center is you thought if this guy had regular at bats that he could hit around 280. Maybe not as much power, but hit 280.
So I would go back to that. And then you, you’re still, you knew when you came into spring training and that you were going to be running trials at shortstop. So it’s time for trials at shortstop.
Martinez had played so well in spring training before he got hurt. they were thinking about him, you know, maybe going in that Derby with, Arias and Rokeo. I have to met Rokeo to me, look utterly mentally defeated at the plate.
He, he looked completely lost. Looked at me a bit like me at Benedictine. I don’t know how many times I went the fastballs right down the middle and just.
The fact that I ever played after some of those games by Coach Agibassu just proved the man was truly a Christian and had a charitable heart. But this is the big leagues. It’s a little different there.
so I don’t want to see Urias. So really, I think you’re down to Schneeman, Martinez, or Tanya. David Campbell (21:59.
342) Okay, well, we may know things might be happening right now for all we know in terms of decisions. Somebody’s going to have to play there and I don’t know who they’ll bring up, it’s to be an interesting day at Progressive Field. So we need to talk about Matthew Boyd a little bit, Terry.
The Guardians kind of signed him, boy, was it a couple months ago now? I’m trying to think a couple weeks ago. I know they’ve been looking at him for a while and he’s been pitching down in Akron. On Sunday, he pitched against Richmond, 52 pitches, 41 strikes.
Terry Pluto (22:02.857) Somebody’s got to play Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (22:12.
084) Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (22:16.979) couple weeks ago.
David Campbell (22:28.878) I he topped out at 94 miles an hour from what I saw. Yeah.
And are you ready to bring him up now or do you want to give him another start down there to get his pitch count Terry Pluto (22:31.743) Bring them up, bring them up. Yes.
No, bring them up. don’t care. I mean, right now, if you get three or four innings out of a guy, you’re fine.
I mean, they’re positive. You’d like more, but you you look at your rotation and it’s been better of late, but Boyd’s on a contract that ends at the end of this year. I he doesn’t have an option or anything like that.
There’s no reason to drag your feet on this one. Cause they were saying when they watched him do his workout, and then his sim game back in progressive field, can we, can we bring them up now? And they were, they were impressed by him. So I would not hesitate on that at David Campbell (23:19.
384) So you would see him maybe starting like a bullpen game one of these days and just going, you put them on a pitch count Terry Pluto (23:22.697) Sure, or just throw them in. Well, aren’t they, I believe they’re starting Curry Tuesday night, are they not? Yeah.
Okay. That’s an easy, that’s an easy fix. Boy goes in the rotation, Curry goes a David Campbell (23:28.
724) I believe so. David Campbell (23:37.838) That’s an easy switch.
And you’re not worried about making sure he’s built up to 80 pitches or anything like that. bring him in. Have him pitch here.
Yeah, have him pitch here instead of an Akron. Okay. Terry Pluto (23:44.
081) No, so I pitch just three, I want three or four good innings. Yeah, exactly. And then, and let, and let Curry relieve them or whatever.
don’t right now you got to figure out ways to win games. It’s almost like you got to figure out a way to every inning. of what points he laid out, with them not scoring against the starters.
So that actually puts more premium on who’s starting the game and how they are pitching. Like I didn’t think Carlos was too bad, not great, but wasn’t too bad yesterday, but he didn’t get a lot of help on a couple of the balls too. So, but you know, Carlos Carrasco, he’s he’s a Ben Lively.
mean, these guys, anybody could have signed them. Anybody. They were out there.
So they’ve got to have squeezed a lot out of them, but they’re going to need to find something else. And you know, we haven’t brought up the trade deadline because I don’t know what they’re going to do. I have David Campbell (24:47.
342) We can talk about that for a second. I did want to mention real quick, we did get an email from Jefferson Wolf, listener from Virginia, and he says, Terry and Dave, the Guardians have only three games so far this year in which the starter exceeded 100 pitches. I didn’t realize this.
Interestingly, all three times it was Tanner Bybee. He threw 102 pitches on June 12th, 109 on July 10th, and 102 again on July 19th. I have no idea if there’s any significance to this, but I thought it was kind of interesting.
That’s from Jefferson Wolf. Terry Pluto (24:47.635) feeling Terry Pluto (25:15.
935) Well, if you look at number one, they’re trying to develop by being into being, you know, a frontline starter, which means you got to go 100, 110 pitches sometimes. But then you start going through the rest of them. Well, who’s going to go 100 pitches? Gavin Williams can, he’s coming off an arm problem.
Ben Lively, know, Ben Lively and Carrasco. I mean, these guys, if you get five or six, you get six decent innings, you know, you want to have to the Holes and a chorus. David Campbell (25:16.
653) Virginia. Terry Pluto (25:46.119) out of them.
It’s not there. Just the fact. As I said, they were there.
They were rummage sale pickups. That’s not to put them down. It’s just to say, this is how it goes.
So then the rest of your rotation, I mean, what is it? Logan Allen and McKenzie are in the minors. Minors. So that’s why Matthew Boyd, bring them up.
know, if you want about, I think, I believe this is correct. I think McKenzie did something like walk five guys in his last start or something. David Campbell (26:03.
244) Yeah, they’re just holding it together. David Campbell (26:15.456) Yeah, he’s having a rough time.
All right. So let’s get into the trade deadline. Terry, I did want to, this is an interesting email from Terry Ramey from Burlington, North Carolina.
Longtime listener. says, Hey, Dave and Terry, I need to vent a little frustration. love my guards and root for them to win or lose and have followed them all my life.
I liked the hiring of Stephen vote. I’ve never said anything bad about the front office as they’ve always seemed to do a decent job. And I’ve always felt Larry Dolan did right by the team.
Terry Pluto (26:16.359) It was bad. was, yeah, he’s not close.
David Campbell (26:41.568) I am no longer of that opinion. need your help to work through my frustration.
I know Mr. Dolan has emptied up the salary in previous years and makes a decent profit each year. We’ve had the youngest roster or a near youngest roster for a couple of years.
We have two or three, including Quan, excellent players, and we need to start adding some quality players from outside the organization. I’m not talking about used up retreads like Bell and Zanino. How frustrating has it got to be with players seeing teammates go down with injuries and not see the team add quality help? I’m so frustrated ownership and management is not doing anything to help this team this year.
Please help me work through feeling this way. I just bought the MLB package to watch the Guardian since I now live in North Carolina. So I am invested.
Thanks for your patience. All right, Terry. So the trade deadline here, we were talking about Eric Fetty from the White Sox last week, and you’ve written about this over the last couple of weeks.
The market is very tight because there are so many teams in contention. The buyers, way outnumber the sellers here and what are you thinking that they can do? And then I have something I wanted to say off of Terry’s email when you’re done. Go Terry Pluto (27:48.
923) Why don’t you go first? Because I don’t have a good idea. David Campbell (27:51.958) Yeah, so there’s spending money on players and there’s spending talent on players.
And I think that the guardians are willing to spend money in terms of contract, but they don’t, you’ve got to give up a lot of your future to get some of these guys that might not be worth it. And I think the investment of talent is what is going to hold up any kind of meaningful deal more than money. That is my take on it.
What do you Terry Pluto (28:20.703) Okay. The interesting thing on this is Chris Internetty’s history.
Twice he made talent for veteran trades. First is back, you have to go all the way back. think it’s 2013 or somewhere.
He traded, no, this was 2011. This shows how far back it was. They get off to a fast start in 2011.
Maniaco was the manager. They then traded to number one pitching prospects. I remember I did not like this trade.
It was Alex White and Drew Pomerance. There might’ve been something else in the deal. And they got a ball to him and S which actually turned out to work well for them.
took them a year and a half to fix him and S but in 2013, him and his help them make the playoffs. Meanwhile, uh, Alex White suffered the dreaded index finger injury. And then he had Tommy John Pomerance just kind of bounced Then of course the big trade they made in 2016 was for Miller, Andrew Miller, and the primary guys Justice Sheffield was in that trade and Quint Frazier.
There were some other guys too. There’s a guy named, think Ben, Ben somebody that actually pitched into majors too with the Yankees. And so that helped them win.
So, and really if you were to lay out all those prospects that they gave up, none of them have really come back to hurt them. Now, one that did, was in the trade for Miles straw. I always want to call him ain’t our ideas, like the old catcher, but his last name was Diaz and he’s gone on to the Astros and he’s been a really good player.
But a number of these other guys, sometimes the guardians are a little like the Dodgers or they hype up a lot of these prospects. They go somewhere else and a lot of them do not fare well. That’s why I do think given that history that Antinetti might be willing Terry Pluto (30:24.
531) you know, push some of those young prospect chips in the table to get these guys. Now the other caveat was Jimenez when they traded for him at I think two and a half years of team control. And when they traded for Miller, he had at least a year and a half, if not more on the contract.
So it wasn’t, it wasn’t that. And you remember a year ago, this was so strange. Well, they made those deals where they traded.
Well, they traded from Manzardo, they Aaron Savalli, but then they picked up all those guys on waivers like Gio Leto and Moore and I forgot who else it was. I think it was three pitchers. It was seemingly, they just sort of did it in September.
It didn’t go anywhere, but that was an odd move. That’s why they’re hard to handicap. David Campbell (31:18.
254) So if you’re a guardians fan and I guess I can ask you this, Terry, I mean, you’re talking about guys like Juan Brito and, and Manzardo and chase the lauter. Like those are the kinds of prospects that, you know, I’m just looking at MLB pipelines list of the top 10 guardians here, uh, prospects and they don’t have Travis Buzan or any of the new draftees on this list, but those it’s the louder number one, Manzardo number two, Juan Brito is number five. George Valera.
Like these are the kinds of guys that other teams are going to want to get Eric Fetty. Right. Terry Pluto (31:24.
851) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (31:46.
707) They could have George Valero. I don’t mean, I’m serious. It’s nothing personal, but he can’t stay healthy.
know, Juan Espino or Daniel Espino. I mean, you can have him. I I don’t know if he’s ever going to pitch again.
All right. How about this? Would you trade Logan Allen or McKenzie? David Campbell (31:48.68) Yeah, I guess yeah, David Campbell (31:57.
026) Daniel Espino. David Campbell (32:11.31) Think you would at this point.
Terry Pluto (32:12.647) Yeah. Yeah.
I certainly would trade McKenzie because of the weirdness of his season, the thing hanging over him. But if you’re another team looking for pitching, of course, the history of the guardians trading pictures of what happens to them after that ought to frighten anybody. We’ll save that for another podcast, but my goodness, know, Corey Kluver, Mike Clevenger, you just go, I mean, it’s almost David Campbell (32:32.
482) Yeah, especially with the Padres. Terry Pluto (32:40.157) You trade them, they might as well just sign them up for some sort of arm injury right now.
Even Andrew Miller struggled after he left here. It’s fun to look at, you know, baseball, you could do more of this than any other sport. Could you get the minor league stuff? You’ve got all kinds of things going on.
It is probably why baseball is one of my most favorite things to talk about. And there’s so much unknown. And I’m really, I’m just anxious.
know, the Delotter thing just breaks my heart to see what happened to him where he’s had this foot injury. Then he hurt it again. Then he came back.
He was fine. And his first game back, he somehow runs into the wall with his foot and hurts it. So now he’s back at Goodyear.
And believe me, he’s a real thing at the plate. Now he wasn’t hitting much early in the season with Akron, but I heard he was playing with a bad foot for a few weeks. He just didn’t tell anybody.
David Campbell (33:39.662) Yeah, it’s one of those last years and he’ll try and get things right and head at it in 2025. So anyway, Terry, the guardians are back at it tonight with their series against Detroit.
And then they are playing the Phillies this weekend and man, the trade deadline is a week from today, July 30th. So there will be some things happening or maybe it’ll be quiet. A lot of people are predicting quiet.
I’ve seen the Cardinals are interested in Feddy maybe Bob Nightingale reported that over the weekend. he’s going to be, he’s going to Terry Pluto (33:43.155) Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (33:52.82) boy. David Campbell (34:08.
194) hot commodity. We’ll see where the guardians end up. you ready to take a break, Terry? Alright, when we come back, I wanna ask you who’s the one player who made you nuts during NBA Summer League and I wanna talk to you a little bit about the new kickoff rules in the NFL and like that it’s it’s gonna look weird and different.
I think there’s some fun behind it too. So, we’ll get Terry Pluto (34:12.318) Yes.
Terry Pluto (34:29.319) Yeah, you are now in charge of new kickoff rules. I’m in charge of kickers.
You are in charge of kickoff rules. David Campbell (34:35.614) Alright, we’ll attack that and more when we return in a minute on Terry’s talking.
David Campbell (37:05.43) Hey, we’re back on Terry’s talking. I didn’t want to mention Terry before I forget your newsletter, which comes out every Wednesday.
It’s available to subscribers. The easiest way to sign up is go to cleveland .com slash Pluto.
You’ll find all of Terry’s stuff there. But if you go to the top of that page, there’s a blue bar, click on that. It’ll take you right to where you can sign up for Terry’s newsletter.
There’s a free trial. I think it’s two or three weeks where you get the newsletter every Wednesday for free and you can see if you like it. You will.
A lot of great stuff in there, Terry. I don’t know. You want to talk about the newsletter for a second? Terry Pluto (37:34.
835) Well, just that it’s been, it’s been growing in terms of getting response from people. And I really do put quite a bit of work on it. I try to write the sort of, this is why I wrote this story or approach the story that way.
and, probably going to lead with the Browns this week, cause I’ve been writing a lot about the Cavs and guardians since it started, because of what the Browns going into training camp. I’ve had some fun with it. It’s great to hear from readers and I’m really, I did this a long, long time ago in a different form when I was at the Akron Beacon Journal.
This was like way ahead of our thing. We had a guy named David Adams who had thought of it and it would just go out, you know, people would sign up with their emails and that. We had, grew to the list, grew to about 10 ‚000.
And that’s where I was kind of developing the thing to do now. And so I’m really, Look, I’m grateful for my readers and listeners, whatever format they get me because see, I’ve been scamming people for a long time in this media business. And I think back to my day when I, my six months at Lincoln West teaching five classes, three preps every day, along with the study hall.
And I think back to my days at the warehouse where my dad worked. And although I wasn’t stacking cases, I was in charge of inventory. was always looking like for 40 lost cases of tomatoes and where are they? then, or doing was one of the worst things called the dreaded cigarette count where you had to go through all these cases to keep track of that.
So, all right, so long way of saying I appreciate you. And I’m so glad that I’m still able to keep this thing going. David Campbell (39:25.
262) Yeah, it’s a, we’re lucky to be able to kind of do what we do, Terry, and kind of have these interactions with fans. are very fortunate. So, okay.
The Cavaliers big news it’s off season, but there’s always something going with the Cavs. seems like they’ve got another thing accomplished that they wanted to do. Evan Mobley has signed a five year, 224 million contract extension.
kind of broke late Saturday night, 23 years old. This is kind of one of I guess four things they were trying to do with a coach coaching staff, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley. And I guess we can talk about Isaac Acor on a second, but let’s talk about the Mobley thing real quick, Terry.
What does it mean for the Cavs in terms of their finances? What does it mean to the franchise in terms of the next five years of playoff aspirations? And yeah, what did you, what was your take on Terry Pluto (40:14.783) Well, he’s now the third player on some form of maximum contract. Garland is one.
He has like four years, 164 million left. The new Mitchell contract is three years and 150. And now Mobley, the five years, 224.
I’m not going to get into all why the different numbers are what they are, but they’re all huge. But then you look at that and say, this is just ridiculous. All this money and so on.
I don’t mean even compared to the normal word, but this seems like given high for pro sports. But Mobley is the fourth player from that draft to sign exactly that type of max contract. The others are Kate Cunningham with Detroit and Franz Wagner with Orlando and Scotty Barnes with Toronto.
So you go, well, why are they throwing all this money and you all around with these guys. So I of look deep into it. mean, you know what the average salary in the NBA is now? David Campbell (41:19.
864) Ten million? Terry Pluto (41:20.735) Yeah, it’s almost 11. You know, it’s 140 million is the salary cap for basically 15 players.
But you know, a lot of teams are over that. Secondly, see the NBA has a thing where, yeah, they have a salary cap and now all kids are penalty for going over it. But they also have a salary floor.
And this year, while the salary cap was 140 million, All teams must spend at least 124 million. In other words, they must spend 90 % of what that cap number is. That drives up payrolls around basketball.
And so that’s why some of these teams, especially bad ones, will throw a max contract at a guy. Like the Cavs did it kind of prematurely with Darius Garland, if you think about it. But at that point, you know, they were, he made an All -Star team and, well, hey, why not? And then finally, within a year or two, this $76 billion TV thing kicks in, which will just juice up that salary cap.
Terry Pluto (42:32.317) The money just keeps pouring in for this league. And the other reason is you don’t need that many players in the NBA.
David Campbell (42:40.334) Well, two things, Jerry, it does remind me of the Browns in terms of like getting out in front of the market. And I mean, Jared Allen, when he signed the 20 million a year deal, I think he’s got two years left on that.
If I remember from what you had that in your column, I think, but like that, that is like the Amari Cooper Browns contract. Like they got way out in front of the market with getting him here. And, know, and these kinds of deals with you, like you just said, with the new TV contract.
Terry Pluto (42:52.531) Yep. Terry Pluto (42:58.
313) Yeah, it is. David Campbell (43:08.674) Darius Garland’s deal is going to be, by the time it’s done, he’s going to be underpaid probably.
Cavs fans can hope, maybe not, in terms of, you know what I’m saying though, like it’s...
Terry Pluto (43:14.303) Well, I don’t know. But remember the various Garland thing too, as the trade trigger in it.
Basically, if you trade them, whatever’s left on the contract, you got to jack it up 15%. In this case, if they were to trade them tomorrow at 164 million, you got to add another 26 million to David Campbell (43:36.088) Yeah, but my point is like these deals, the sooner you can sign guys to them with you, like you said, the TV contract, the thing’s going to spiral up and up and up.
These will be looked at as reasonable deals or bargains in a couple of years when that new money starts coming Terry Pluto (43:40.435) Yes, absolutely. Terry Pluto (43:50.
047) Like you will hear to your point, David, you will hear trade rumors on Jared Allen never ending until either he is traded or he signs an extension here. That contract that 20 million a year for the next two years is, a bargain for a guy that you know will defend and can rebound and showed a lot of offensive promise last year. And, and I don’t want to hear any more about it.
The guy’s ribs and he didn’t take a David Campbell (44:14.018) Double, double machine. Terry Pluto (44:19.
231) I just don’t want to hear it. He had broken ribs. I’ve had broken ribs recently as November.
First few weeks, you are helpless. It’s just that. so, and he had played 81 consecutive games until that point.
So anyway, granted, I’m a big Allen guy. think he’s been underrated from the time they have him. And I continue to be that.
And I am so glad Kenny Atkinson speaks so glowingly of wanting to really see the Alan Mobley thing for himself. Where I believe Garland is more or less a finished product. He’s just got to get healthy.
I don’t see him making huge jumps in his game other than health. There’s a lot of growth available for Mobley who, when I first started covering the NBA back in the Stone Age or to be exact in 1986, he would have been pro rookie this upcoming season. The Cavs had this big draft and it was the draft of 1985, I believe.
But it was a draft where they got Brad Doherty and Ron Harper and Mark Price. And the year before they had drafted Hot Rod Williams who had to sit out a year while that punch shaving thing in Twain went away. All of those guys.
were four -year college players. And actually there was a different guy they took in that draft too, guy named Johnny Newman played about 12 years in the NBA with different teams, another four -year player. And I remember I’m writing, oh, they have all these kids and they’re all, you know, they’re only 21, 22.
I mean, Doherty was like a baby. It just turned 20. Even though he, he was so smart.
He had graduated from high school at 16. So, you know, now it’s like, oh, you don’t want to draft him. He’s 22, he’s old.
David Campbell (46:10.542) It’s crazy to think about like back in the day like you had to declare like a hardship to leave college as a fresh as a sophomore right you have to show financial hardship or some crazy Terry Pluto (46:17.471) Yeah, yeah.
And then it just sort of became, well, you don’t want them, they’re too young. Actually, I will say this, for the most part, that thought process, unless you’re talking about LeBron James or the prodigies, is correct. In fact, there’s a theory in the NBA, it’s called the second draft theory.
All right, here’s how it works. So you watch these kids drafted at 19. David Campbell (46:40.
93) Let’s hear this. Terry Pluto (46:46.527) You know, after one year, and it first came in, by the way, before though, you had to stay in one year in college rule, back when they write out.
And they said, okay, so he stinks. He’s 18, 19, 20. He’s struggling.
He’s immature that. Then they say, now pretend you would be taking him like the old days and you would evaluate him. Now is the time to go get him on the cheap under trade and see at the age of 22, 23, 24.
That’s when you would have been getting them before only now he’s got this sort of pro experience behind him. and you now have even better things to evaluate. But in other words, the idea, I mean, I remember Drew Gooden was a guy that I first heard that about, you know, go get him now, even though he kind of sputtered along and drew good and ended up being a good player for a long time in the NBA and applies to others.
didn’t apply to guys who became stars, but it went from guys that you see seem to be really ready to write off they become viable NBA players in David Campbell (47:47.958) I that second draft is like fourth meal at Taco Bell. Like the second draft.
All right. The Cavs had a so so summer league, Terry. I know there was one guy I think you were impressed with and you were telling me there’s one guy who made you crazy.
So let’s talk about those Terry Pluto (47:52.487) Yeah. Terry Pluto (48:03.
759) Right, Jalen Tyson is going to be a good player. I mean, maybe not right away for the Cavs, but you could put him in the game. I am convinced of that.
The 6 ‘6′′, small forward shooting guard type that they took from California. think Kobe nailed that first round pick with this guy. he, you know, he averaged like, he shot over 50%.
And just, he just seemed to really, Be very comfortable out there. And they put the ball in his hands a lot too. And, and he looked good.
So I’m really now he played three years of college, David. See, it’s a difference. And, and he went through some rough times, not that what he did, but just with crazy college program stuff with going to one code, one program and the coach leaving.
And then another one that coach gets fired for racial remarks and ends up at California. David Campbell (48:42.24) And it shows.
And it shows. Terry Pluto (48:59.127) just because he’s kind of looking for a safe haven where he could play and totally rebuild this game.
So he almost is a second draft player, but he’s an old -fashioned draft guy. So I really did like him. And then the other guy was the guy that you promoted.
David Campbell (49:19.18) Money baits? Why? Tell us why. Terry Pluto (49:20.
169) drives me nuts. because I’ll be watching party games and I’m seeing how when he’s sort of concentrating on moving the ball some and maybe going to the rim and looking for teammates and I’m thinking he’s out of that, just jack up the ball anytime I get it. Then it’s like it goes away and it isn’t just that he’s shooting a lot, he’s shooting off balance, he’s rushing it for no reason.
He’s taking shots that are somewhat hard and making into, you know, high wire act of long, terrible degree of difficulty. Now he’s still, this is only entering his second pro season. So I have to be careful in my thoughts about him because there is something there.
And from what I can tell, he’s not been in any trouble. There’s no off the court stuff, but I was hoping. Especially early on, had a really good game that I liked.
He played more of the all around game, that maybe he was taking a big step forward. But as the summer league went on, I just saw a lot of the bad habits come back. I’m certainly not ready to get rid of them in any reason, but, and I’m sure the coach to sit down and show them these tapes and go, come on, man.
I mean, there’s twice I saw him get the ball in the corner and takes a dribble, now he’s shooting from behind the backboard, falling back, it’s like he’s doing a horse shot. I mean, just shoot it. You’re six foot 11 or whatever he David Campbell (50:50.
136) Yeah. And the games, they started to fall behind and the game got a little bit out. The more three pointers he would throw up, like, and you know how the NBA works, Yeah.
There’s no, when you’re feeling a game slipping away, you’ve got to work. Like you got to work and get in the lane and get good shots. Like throwing up random threes does not get it done.
And I don’t know what he shot from. Terry Pluto (50:59.901) And throw up is the right word is what it looked like.
mean, it really was. David Campbell (51:15.118) field from three point in summer league but it couldn’t have been it couldn’t have been more than 28 % or something and he was just jacking so anyway they’ll catch him on the second draft there’s a he’ll catch him at his second draft age.
Terry Pluto (51:16.575) It was like 29 % or something. Yeah, it wasn’t good.
So that, Terry Pluto (51:25.949) Yeah, it’s a fun. Yeah.
I remember who told me that theory. It’s a name that won’t mean a whole lot to anybody, but he’s got an interesting guy. His is Mark work and team.
And for a while he was an assistant general manager here with, Paxson when Paxson was a GM. He later was an assistant with the, I think with Denver and then with, the Knicks, but he was known for, he was at UNLV and when Tark brought David Campbell (51:32.43) I like that.
Terry Pluto (51:55.097) Lloyd Daniels, this New York playground legend. He had work in team quote unquote adopt him for a year.
I forgot why there was some way around the college rule. So he was legally adopt him or become like a guardian or something for Lloyd David Campbell (52:07.36) Legally, you mean? Like legally adopt him? David Campbell (52:16.
75) Crazy. Crazy days of Jerry Tarkany and the UNLV. There’s been books written about that.
Terry Pluto (52:20.553) Jerry Tarkanian, yes, and I remember, to leave the guilty there, I remember the, one of the mistakes I made in my career is that I agreed to do a book with Jerry Tarkanian. And it had turned out, and this had nothing about Jerry being a bad guy or anything, but it turned out that actually his wife Lois wanted the book to be done.
Lois was friends with a journalism Excuse me with a drama professor named Jerry Crawford It was my friend and Jerry kind of brokered this deal and so then I wanted but then I realized the book came out Don’t get it. It’s Jerry didn’t care about it What I did? weren’t me boy Daniel’s Danny and a few other people and so And the people around UNLV would tell me, you know say You know, we do a lot of knucklehead cheating around here, not like in any way, name a bunch of other schools. I always liked that line.
Of course now, you know, compared to what’s going on, it was knucklehead cheating. David Campbell (53:29.092) Great stuff Terry Pluto (53:29.
471) I remember one time Tark said to me about a player, we had them all land up. We got banned. I said, what do mean he got banned? And this was another West Coast school.
goes, they gave his mother a van. We got banned. David Campbell (53:44.
11) Jeez. It’s Terry Pluto (53:46.496) And then I had another guy said, yeah, he was just willing to take a stereo system from us.
I’m like, I don’t want to hear any of this. David Campbell (53:54.246) man, yeah, the you know, he was like the the renegade coach of Rebel the Rebel coach for back in the day and and now like there’s a statue of him outside the basketball arena in Vegas the UNLB arena with chewing his towel chewing his towel his trademark towel.
Terry Pluto (53:58.215) Yeah, yeah, he was. Terry Pluto (54:06.
695) Yeah, and for and you look back at yeah, he wasn’t I mean he was a very nice guy. was quirky but very nice and then you go back and I mean he actually was like way ahead of the transfer portal thing, you know, it all junior college guys and I and NIL yeah, we’ll give them a stereo system, whatever it was and you know the guys used The other job they would get they would park cars in front of the casinos for tips David Campbell (54:22.154) And NIL paying the players.
Terry Pluto (54:36.703) So you can imagine this is Las Vegas. They know who these famous players for UNLV are.
So a guy comes in, park his car, he gives them 50 bucks or more. Boy, he’s got to bring your car back too. David Campbell (54:46.
23) Or more. That’s classic. All right.
Hey, I think that’s it on the calves. We’ll get more on Isaac Acoro next week. That’s the last thing kind of hanging out there for the calves is what they’re going to do with Isaac Acoro.
Terry Pluto (54:59.869) Yeah. All right.
I’m going to throw it to you. The Browns are starting and your thoughts David Campbell (55:08.6) Starting, what do mean? Terry Pluto (55:10.
963) West Virginia, Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah River, John Denver. David Campbell (55:16.346) yeah.
Take me home, right? The famous song, West Virginia. So yeah, training camp starts Thursday down at the Greenbrier in West Virginia. We will have our Browns reporting crew down there to track it all.
Terry, what are you most concerned about with Deshaun Watson and what do you want to see early from him? He spoke last week at his seven on seven camp, his high school event here in town and said there’s no room for negative attitudes anymore. Terry Pluto (55:18.963) Take me home country roads.
David Campbell (55:45.376) Everything’s going to be positive. We’re going for this thing and we want good vibes.
But what do you want to see from Deshaun Watson during training Terry Pluto (55:53.951) And that’s a good thing to say. I know I laugh, but that’s a good thing to say because you do want that.
But a lot of that vibe, good or bad, rests on his shoulder. I didn’t say shoulders, shoulder, the right one. And we won’t have an answer on that until they’re playing real games where he gets hit.
And that’s the difficult thing. It’s all gonna be kind of waiting on this unless he has some sort of unforeseen I was talking to a top Browns person the other day and they really are very, very upbeat on how the shoulder is healed, the strength is coming back, all that stuff. And as he said, we just need to see them play.
I mean, they really, really do. But I’m curious to Terry Pluto (56:42.911) I think back from 20 to 21, they were not able to capitalize on the 20 season.
Granted Baker got hurt in game two, but that was a funky year going on all the way. Remember with OBJ and stuff like Terry Pluto (57:00.575) and they brought in OBJ.
Now he wasn’t on the 20 team. Will this team actually be able to have a winning record, David? And I believe you have to go back to the burning close our years of the late eighties to where they went back to back winning seasons. David Campbell (57:22.
382) So I’m waiting to see what happens with this Amari Cooper situation because I think that has an important part and it’s more than just, they going to get them under contract and get them to camp? But the residual effect, like if he’s late coming into camp and we’ve seen this before with the Browns, Terry, when guys don’t play together in camp, they don’t have their timing and their chemistry and the little intricacies of routes. Terry Pluto (57:30.153) Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (57:51.35) Watson and Cooper didn’t play much last year together after everything that went down and I think they need every day they can get it. I think it behooves the Browns to get that’s not a cliche, right? I can say it behooves the Browns.
That’s all right. I’m gonna say it. It behooves the Browns to get this thing done.
Yeah, they got to get this done soon because The Bears and the Texans play the first preseason game a week from Thursday. It’s come August 1st like it’s common Terry Pluto (57:54.783) Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (58:04.179) Sure, I like behooving. Behooving is good.
Terry Pluto (58:19.134) Mm David Campbell (58:19.314) And you cannot waste any days where you don’t have a Mari Cooper catching passes from Deshaun Watson.
This needs to happen quickly. Terry Pluto (58:25.821) I’m going to defer to you on this because you do know more about it and this is all sincere.
This choice route stuff, now which they’re putting in, first of all explain what that is and then the question to follow up. So what is it? And secondly, does that make it more incumbent or behoving, which I do like that word, for Omari and those guys to be there because of how this works? David Campbell (58:52.002) Yeah, I mean, not to get too technical with it, but Lance Rysland, who does a lot of film breakdowns for us, did a, did a thing on this, think a month or so ago, but a choice route is something where you’re lined up, you run, you run five yards, just as an example, and you get a choice about where you’re going to run the route.
If the defensive back is playing outside on your outside shoulder, for example, then you cut inside and you run a post or a hard slant or something off the, that, if they’re playing inside leverage. You read that and you cut the opposite way. And sometimes there’s variations that, but that’s basically at the choice.
get a choice and it’s up to the quarterback and the receiver to recognize what that choice is going to be based on the coverage they’re seeing. So yeah, it’s another reason, Terry, like which way is Amari Cooper going on this route? Given this coverage, that’s the stuff that needs to be ironed out in July and early August and not on September 8th when the Cowboys come to town. So that’s kind of where it’s at.
Terry Pluto (59:35.966) Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (59:47.
047) Yeah, now we now another thought is this. In the past, Brown’s fans and we in the media be running about here comes the new coordinator. You know the new system, the new thoughts, all this and then for the most part, maybe the paint job.
Changed the car still ran the same way, not well spotted around the track. Until Jim Schwartz came That’s one time I’m thinking where they brought a new coordinator in in the last several years and it made a major difference. So now you’re with Ken Dorsey.
Your thoughts. Is this a Schwartz or this be same old David Campbell (01:00:33.184) I think the tenants of like a power running game are still going to be there.
Cause I, this is Kevin Stefanski’s offense, right? I mean, this is what he enjoys doing and he’s going to have a huge input into what’s happening. But I think they want to make sure they don’t fall behind in terms of innovation and you know, pre snap motion, a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about. And I think that’s, that was behind the Dorsey thing.
We need to keep evolving. A lot of new coaches, it’s like, we want 11 games, but we’re not going to stand Pat. We have to always be looking for new things.
And I think that’s why they did what they did with making the changes. So anyway, to answer your question, I think it’s not a Jim Schwartz because Jim Schwartz is the head coach of the defense. And I don’t see Dorsey being the head coach of the offense.
see him being someone who will help shape the direction of it, but not be the defining person behind it. I don’t know. That makes sense.
Terry Pluto (01:01:14.217) Mm -hmm. Terry Pluto (01:01:27.
271) Yeah, we’ll find out. Here’s an interesting question. Terry Pluto (01:01:35.
611) Is it wiser to give Dorsey the play calling right away or is it wiser to let Kevin do David Campbell (01:01:44.364) I think they’ll make that decision during preseason. A lot of times you’ll see people doing different things during preseason as an experiment or to give them a look at it.
So I don’t know. That’s, think Tony Grossi asked about that at every press conference where it’s like a running joke. Yeah.
So we’ll see. But, I think they probably want to make that decision earlier than later. Maybe they, maybe they make the decision and don’t tell anybody.
That’s another thing they could do. Terry Pluto (01:01:59.315) Yeah, now it’s his job.
It’s .
