CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast , Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins discuss the passing of Nick Mileti, the founder of the Cavs . They also analyze the NBA 2K ratings of Cavs player Evan Mobley and compare him to other players on the list. The conversation highlights the importance of defense and the potential growth of Mobley’s offensive game.
More Cavs coverage When I first met former Cavs owner Nick Mileti – Terry Pluto Bally Sports Ohio will continue to broadcast Cavaliers games through 2024-25 season What the Cavs are saying about the passing of former owner Nick Mileti Takeaways: Emoni Bates has gained weight, which could potentially impact his game and make him more competitive in the NBA. Nick Mileti, the founder of the Cleveland Cavaliers, passed away at the age of 93, leaving behind a significant legacy in the city. Evan Mobley is ranked 46th in the NBA 2K top 100 list, with an overall rating of 86.
His defensive skills are highly regarded, but his offensive game still needs improvement. Defense is often overlooked in favor of offense, but it is a crucial aspect of the game that can greatly impact a team’s success. Comparisons between players like Derrick White and Darius Garland highlight the importance of defensive abilities and how they can complement a team’s overall performance.
Evan Mobley’s offensive growth will be a key factor in determining his place among other players in the NBA. The NBA 2K ratings and rankings are subject to change throughout the season based on player performance and development. Listen using the player below: You can also listen using your preferred podcast app.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings. Ethan Sands What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast.
I’m joined once again by one of the best columnists in the business, Jimmy Watkins. Jimmy, how are you feeling today? How has your week been so far? It feels like it’s been a little bit of a interesting one for sure. Jimmy Watkins (00:33.
051) I go to Brown’s practice. I go to the gym. I go home.
This is my life now. Summer is over. Beaches are behind us.
We’re working again. We’re working again. The calves aren’t far behind either.
Ethan Sands (00:49.422) back to the nitty gritty. Unfortunately for me and you, Beaches are behind us a little bit.
Chris is also still on vacay. Who knows where he is? Obviously, hopefully again, he’s not listening to this podcast, but there’s a lot of work being put in not only by us as reporters, but also the guys that we’re covering, right? Cavs, Browns, all those different guys. And so far there’s been a little bit of news that’s been posted Again, I’m a social media warrior, Jimmy.
I’m floating around trying to catch everything that’s being posted, seen online, all of those different things. The most recent thing that I’ve been seeing is Emoni Bates posted on his Instagram story that he is now 202 pounds. So for those who don’t know, Emoni Bates entered the NBA at 170 pounds soaking wet.
And he has now put on 32 pounds. in the one year that he’s been in the NBA. That is, like, by no stretch of the imagination impressive when it comes to the determination, the dedication that it takes to do that.
But then the question turns to how will that translate to his game? Will that impact the shooting? Will that impact how he approaches each game, each aspect of the style of play that he has? And will that entreat the Cavs to allow him to play more games against NBA opponents? because he might not be pushed around as much on the defensive end especially. Jimmy, I know we’ve been talking about weight a whole lot over the last couple of podcasts. What do you think about the added body mass for Emoni Bates and how that could impact his game and potentially help him? Jimmy Watkins (02:35.
539) I think we should get like a creatine sponsor or something. First of all, the way we’re talking about these dudes. My Emoni Bates puts on a bunch of weight take is that, damn, it sounds like he needed to put on a bunch of weight.
I don’t think these transformations, I mean, as good as these professional training staffs are, I don’t think they happen this quickly unless there’s a ton of room for growth. when you think like Emoni Bates, Going back to, you when he was in high school, of the top rated players was getting Kevin Durant comparisons. A lot of that was just because tall, skinny guy who can shoot, right? Like that’s, that’s where a lot of that originated.
And he goes through his college. played a season at Memphis, a season at Eastern Michigan. We’re talking, mean, Memphis, you know, Memphis is coached by Penny Hardaway.
They’re getting big time recruits over there. imagine their facilities are pretty good. but it didn’t sound like it went great for Emoni there.
And then Easter mission, like Mac facilities, Mac training staffs are probably just like the conference itself a notch below. So he went from a mid -major training regimen to a professional training regimen. I think that’s kind of what happened here as for what will happen.
I don’t know, man. Like there’s kind of an old wives tale. when it comes to developing basketball players, particularly when they’re really young, like some people will tell you to not lift weights or delay your start time lifting weights because they think it’ll mess with your jump shot, particularly when you’re Again, it’s most, I think that the science argues against that for that.
not an expert in this, but this is just from what I understand being around basketball for awhile. Although I don’t know many people who have put on this much weight in this short of time. So I do think it’s worth monitoring.
Emoni’s shooting numbers to start next season. Like how he looks, how comfortable he looks in this new body. Because that’s what it is.
This guy’s in a new body now. And I think ultimately it’s going to be good because again, he needed to put on this weight. lot of the.
.. I would just laugh last year when people would be on subtext or on Twitter emailing us like, why aren’t they playing this guy? Because they see the pedigree.
They see where Emoni Bates...
Jimmy Watkins (05:00.647) started his college career, they see him putting up big G League scoring numbers and they think, why can’t this guy help the Cavs? Well, part of it was because the guy can’t, maybe he can stay in front of people, but it doesn’t matter because they will just move him physically. They will say, out of my way.
You’re too thin. So good for the long -term trajectory, might be a little weird in the intermediary. And it is a credit to Emoni for putting in that work.
But again, I think it also just speaks to how low our starting point was and how much weight he needed to put on. Ethan Sands (05:34.676) And Jimmy, I mean, you mentioned him not getting a whole lot of time in Memphis in those facilities.
That’s partially Emoni’s fault, right? Because he got into some personal trouble and he had to deal with that and then go to a different situation because of that entire situation. So, I mean, you can’t take that like for granted. Like he did go from a different place for different reasons.
I don’t want to get into that too much. Jimmy Watkins (05:59.335) I think the real quick, think the exact time, I think he got, if we’re talking about like the weapons charge, I think that happened after he went back to Eastern Michigan, because he’s from the Ypsilanti area.
I think that’s how it worked. I know he he wasn’t like, he also, like it wasn’t going great behind the scenes, like him, there was friction between him and the Memphis staff too. But I think like the criminal stuff didn’t happen until after he transferred.
And those charges have been dropped. Ethan Sands (09:11.946) It’s important to not glance over that because right like we talk about the impact that he had in Memphis he was Had to deal with a back injury all those different things Then he went over to Eastern Michigan was suspended due to the gun charge and then got brought back It feels like he’s had a rough go of it But he’s still learning maturing and all those different things to the point where it feels like this could be the season where Emoni Bates comes back to form because we remember Emoni Bates as the high school phenom.
We remember him as someone who was projected to be potentially the number one overall pick when he turned 19. That obviously didn’t happen. He dropped down to the second round.
I just think it’s important, Jimmy, for us to kind of talk about his trajectory, what has gone on with him and how important it is for him to continue to grow, especially as you said, in this new body. Jimmy Watkins (10:12.649) Yeah, I mean, your point about the off court stuff is poignant because it’s like, yes, he brought on himself.
Those charges were eventually dismissed and he was put on probation that I believe has since I think he had 18 months of it in September 2022. So by my math, we’re good there. And I think those charges have been expunged now.
still, like that’s just by logistical process, you’re going to a new school and you want to. you know, work with the team and get in and get in their facilities like that. I think he was, he was pulled over in September of 2022, which is in like the heart of preseason college basketball stuff.
We’re just, we’re just using that as a way to help explain why maybe he had, he needed to put so much weight on, right? Like he just didn’t get as much time or he had, he was not as focused as he, as he should have been or needed to be because he had this other stuff going on that also needed to require his attention. So there’s All that goes into it. Bottom line is, money base is getting a lot stronger and I think generally that’s a good thing for the calves.
Ethan Sands (11:18.926) 100%. And I think the other piece of news that I wanted to get into is a little bit more on the upsetting or unfortunate sad side is because the founder of the Cleveland Cavaliers, Nick Maletti passed away, Mellon’s day morning.
He was 93 years old. For people who don’t know the history of like Nick Maletti and the Cleveland Cavaliers. He brought the NBA to Cleveland in 1970.
He was also the president of the Indians, now guardians, and two hockey teams, the Barons and the Crusaders, all while running the Cavs at the same time. Milletti also helped build the Richfield Coliseum that opened in 1974 as he deemed the Cleveland Arena inadequate. The Coliseum served as the home of the Cavs until 1994 when the team moved into what is now Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse.
So he’s had a big impact on the city of Cleveland, period, right? He’s done a lot of different things when it comes to team building, team starting, and also building places for these players to play and bring attention to the city. And it felt like for me, when I read all of the stuff that was happening online, when I read people like how they reacted to this, that He was very well respected and appreciated in not only the sports industry, but also just as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, as someone who has been able to have multiple hands in different aspects of the world of sports. And I think that’s just what we talk about with legacy, right? When we talk about some people that have impacted more than just one person have impacted a variety of people, an entire city, an entire state for some.
and I just think it’s really important to touch on that and how important he was for the city, and give him his flowers, right? Obviously you want to give people their flowers before they pass away before they can’t smell them anymore. But this is my way of learning about the history of Cleveland, the history of the calves on foot and continuing to do that. But also giving my respects to somebody who laid the groundwork for the team and what they are today.
So. Ethan Sands (13:37.666) Jimmy, I don’t know if you have seen what has been going on online or heard about this guy.
What, like just when it comes to being able to start a team, how much respect do you think people of this city who are, a sports town can respect someone of that caliber? Jimmy Watkins (13:57.809) Yeah, I mean, I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on all things Nick Bledi. He had his moment in the Cleveland Sports Sun before I was sentient.
But I mean, know that quite literally this podcast wouldn’t exist without him. wouldn’t have, you and I might not have these jobs without him. And given how much sports are woven into the fabric of this city, that, I mean, that’s a sizable legacy to leave behind.
I mean, think about Cleveland basketball, the Cavaliers of the last decade are going to be a relevant talking point for as long as the league exists. Like this is the home of the eventual hall of fame home of LeBron James. Like when the greatest or second greatest or wherever you have them on your list, player of all time retires, he will go in as a Cleveland Cavalier.
He’s the kid from Cleveland. He broke the city’s championship drought. again, none of that, none of that is a part of None of that very important part of NBA lore is a part of the lore without Nick Muddy.
I also just found in our official obit a fun quote from a Cleveland broadcaster, Joe Tate, legend about Nick. goes, Nick was good for Cleveland. He did a lot of things with other people’s money, but at least he did them and they were good things.
He was brilliant for a relatively short time and burned out. Sign me up to have that quote in my obituary. Like I’m trying to do things.
I’m trying to do some cool stuff with other people’s money and I’m trying to burn bright. Maybe not necessarily long. So I like that.
Also, rest in peace, Joe Tate. Ethan Sands (15:35.32) think that’s a great way to put it because, and that quote, rounds it up really well because you talk about somebody’s legacy, you talk about what they meant, what they were able to accomplish, even if it was for a short stint, whatever it may be, starting something is no slight, it’s not easy to go from ground zero to creating an arena to anything like that, to having that arena still being used or whatever it may be.
Those are big things that you can’t take for granted. So shout out to Nick and rest in peace for him and allow him to get his flowers as well. But on a more upbeat note, we wanted to continue our little series of going through the Cavs players and what their ratings are in the new 2K and how those can be comprised and put together with where they stand throughout the NBA.
Because as Jimmy mentioned yesterday, There’s a lot of research that’s put into these stats by the NBA and they take this very seriously because they understand that these players look at this, play the game and are like, hmm, well, why do I do this and during the game and not get the entire thing when I’m on the game? So, and also because there are in season additions and all those different things to their ratings based on things that they do and player upgrades. But. I feel like it’s important to go to the next guy on our list of the core four who was Evan Mobley.
Evan Mobley is ranked 46th in the entire NBA based on NBA 2K top 100. He is an overall of 86. In the top 50, you have guys like Alfred Sengoon, Brandon Ingram, Julius Rando and Scotty Barnes.
Those are the couple of guys that are behind him in this list there, 47 to 50. And then before Evan Mobley, you have guys like De ‘Jonte Murray, Derek White, Franz Wagner, Jalen Williams, and Cade Cunningham. I think this is an interesting list.
One, because we’ve already talked about the battle between Scotty Barnes and Evan Mobley when it comes to the draft class, when it comes to rookie of the year battles, all those different things. And I think it’s interesting to kind of look at where he stands compared to some of these guys. Ethan Sands (18:00.
802) But Jimmy, first and foremost, who do you think on this particular list that I just ran through, do you think should be a little bit higher on this ranking, should be a little bit lower? And do you think Evan Mobley is placed where he’s supposed to when it comes to his relation to the NBA? Jimmy Watkins (18:19.785) So we’re talking from 50 through 41 on this 2K list, is that what we’re talking about right now? I would say, in relation to Mowgli, I would say Sangoon deserves to be below him, Ingram deserves to be below him, Randall deserves to be below him, Scotty Barnes and Evan Mowgli being right next to each other is fitting. The guys in front of him, I would say.
.. Ethan Sands (18:25.
752) do it. Yep. Jimmy Watkins (18:47.
293) I would say three pop out as hmm, not sure about that. We’ll start with the guy immediately in front of him, Dejante Murray, who I like. I like Dejante Murray in a basketball vacuum, a long rangey two guard with some point guard skills.
Not sure I want him to be my primary ball handler, but has flashed all defense level talent before, although he has not been playing a ton of defense the last couple of years. But it’s just like he’s kind of a..
. at this point, theoretically good defensive player because again, he has been playing it much recently who shoots a lot and has never really been on a good team. like in a vacuum, if I’m starting a team, I’m taking Evan Mobley over to Jaunte Murray.
If I have my two stars already and I wanna like pick a perfect third piece, I’m taking Evan Mobley over to Jaunte Murray. really, I’m struggling to imagine the context. where I would take De ‘Jonte Murray over Evan Mobley.
Franz Wagner, didn’t love what I saw from Franz Wagner in the playoffs last year. Orlando has positioned him as their second banana next to Paolo Bancaro. Franz feels more like a third banana to me.
get it, all want, like Franz Wagner on the trademark of tomorrow, you’re gonna get a great return because everyone wants a Big wing who can, we’re talking theoretical again with Franz’s jumper. It’s been up and down since coming to the league. He’s had good moments.
He’s had some last year was he shot below 30 % from three last year and he was, think if Franz Wagner gives you like 60 % of Franz Wagner in that series, the Cavs lose in the first round, but he was awful at times of that series. So I don’t know that I would take it like the thing is Evan Mobley’s defense. always is always there and is always going to change the game and I can just bank on that.
And so it’s hard for me to take some of these wishy washy guys over him. And then the third guy, Cade Cunningham, another draft, I’ve been mobile draft class guy. went first in the draft.
I was, think Cade Cunningham should have gone first in that draft because again, six, eight guy who can run your offense and be your number one guy in theory. I like that over Jimmy Watkins (21:11.367) a defense, over a defense first player who we know with Evan has some offense limitations.
The Pistons have flat sucked with Clint, Cade Cunningham as their best player. And I know that we’re trying to isolate all this stuff in a vacuum, but again, based on the information I have right now, which is I think what 2K is trying to go off of here, I don’t see the context where I’m taking Cade Cunningham over Evan Moley. Maybe to start a team, maybe, but like, the sheen on Cunningham’s rookie year shine, I think, has faded a little bit.
Cade Cunningham’s kind of in you need to show us something mode. You need to win more than 13 games or whatever. Ideally, the Pistons should be tracking towards, this is year four five of this rebuild, maybe year three four, whatever.
They should be tracking towards play -in team. That was their kind of stated goal last year. and they were the worst team in the league.
like part of their front office situation was messy. They have changed that. They have changed the coach.
I understand all that, but some of that falls on the best player too. And Evan Mulby is in a much better context than, than Kate Cunningham is, but like he just, again, I count on the defense. I know that guy can play winning basketball.
Ethan Sands (22:31.554) And I think one, when you talk about the Detroit Pistons, I think this is the year that they take a little bit of a jump. I don’t know if they’re going to become a playing team automatically by adding J.
Biggersav and some surrounding pieces around Kate Cunningham. But I do like that argument, but I don’t want to be hypocritical, right? Because we talked about in the Darius Garland argument, how guys like Alex Crusoe and Jalen Suggs who didn’t have the amount. of point scored or whatever, and we’re still being able to play defensively.
And we still thought that Darius Garland had a better upside, how better offensive potential and all those things. Most of these guys on this list that are ahead of Evan Mobley from last season had a better offensive production. We understand that Evan Mobley was one of, if not top five, top 10 best defenders in the NBA today.
But he also is coming off of arthroscopic surgery, a lot of potential things with Evan Mobley. But this is not me saying that I disagree with you, right? It’s just saying that the numbers are kind of leaning in favor of what 2K is saying when it comes to guys like Cade Cunningham, when it comes to guys like Scotty Barnes. Obviously, Cade Cunningham averaged 22 .
7. points per game last season as the number one option and 7 .5 assists.
Those are good numbers. Scotty Barnes, 19 .9 points per game, 8 .
2 rebounds and 6 .1 assists, right? That’s good stuff. Franz Wagner, 19 .
7 points per game, 5 .3 rebounds, 3 .7 assists.
So those are a little bit lesser, right? I could consider more so an argument with. Evan over Frans because of those kinds of things. He’s just in points production rather than doing everything on the floor for your team.
Like somebody like Kay Cunningham, Scotty Barnes are and those kinds of things. I just think that there is so much potential that has yet to be realized for Evan Mobley that we got to see a glimpse of in the latter half of the Boston Celtics series where Evan Mobley kind of was like, okay, Donovan’s not here. Darius isn’t picking up the slack.
Ethan Sands (24:51.808) I gotta go and actually be the alpha of the team at the moment. And I can show you that.
And I think him coming back from knee surgery, him adding a three point shot to his game or just being more confident shooting that, him being able to take more defenders off the dribble, be able to create for himself is an area that I think he’s gonna be able to take a gross spurt in this next season where you can see that he’s gonna be someone that could challenge for a overall one of the better players in the league because defensively, like we’ve said, we’ve been saying he’s got it. He’s going to be there. He’s going to be consistent.
One of the best rim protectors, one of the best on ball defenders when it comes to longer guys, all those different things. But is he going to be able to be consistent on the offensive end of the ball? And I think that’s where he’s still lacking right now because we haven’t seen it. Jimmy Watkins (25:43.
433) Okay, we do so much with Evan Mobley like the defense, yeah, the defense, but yeah, the defense, but yeah, the defense, but defense is half the game. Literally you have to play, you have to, when you score, you take, when you score, the other team takes the ball out and then you get back on defense. Like if you have, if you have a hundred possessions in a game, you like, you have 50 on defense.
Like that’s just, I don’t actually know how you count. Do possessions count as like full back and forth? Is that one possession? I don’t really know. Maybe you have a hundred on defense.
or something like that. But you get what I’m saying. I’d even just have the game, but it’s not really talked about that way, right? Because we, fans in particular, watch the ball.
We watch the guy who has the ball. don’t want, don’t need like, you probably like, who, who do you have a, how many people have like a list of your favorite, you know, off ball cutters? Not like you can name, probably lot of people can name Steph, because that’s like his signature skill, but besides shooting. But like, we’re just so caught up in watching the ball, watching where the action is that we’re not even, we don’t even see what Evan Mobley is doing behind the scenes with communication or if you’re playing defense right, you’re rotating before the game watchers eyes would get there.
Like you’re getting there early and you know, we can talk about block numbers, but Evan Mobley, which you don’t see a lot of the time is. the shots that don’t even get attempted at the rim because Evan Mobley’s there or he cut off the lane, something like that. You know what I mean? I just like Scotty Barnes, Scotty Barnes All -Star in the words of his coach, Darko, is it Darko Reykjavic? I think that’s how you say that.
One of my favorite internet moments from last year. Yes, Scotty Barnes is better with the ball in his hands than Evan Mobley. Cade Cunningham, yes, is better than Evan Mobley with the ball in his hands.
Franz Wagner, yes. better with the ball in his hands. De ‘Jonte Murray, better with the ball in his hands.
To what end? To what end? What are you guys doing? It’s cool you got all these counting stats. That’s awesome. You’re not winning very many games and it probably has something to do with the fact that your defense isn’t as good as the Cavs because the Cavs have fricking Evan Mobley.
And by the way, you know what happens when you get to play more basketball? Because you play good defense, you get more opportunities to prove yourself. Jimmy Watkins (28:05.577) And Evan Mobley scored 21 a game and grabbed nine rebounds in the Celtics series, which granted wasn’t super duper competitive.
I know we’ve done, we’ve taken sort of two tacks on this show with saying like, hey, it’s predicted all right for, you know, given that Jared Allen wasn’t playing and Donovan missed two games in that series, Karris LaVert was out in game five. The Celtics were also less engaged because those things happened and like never for a second, even when the Cavs won game two convincingly. Nobody thought the Cavs are winning the series.
Never once. Never once did anyone think that. But still, Mobley did stuff that we’ve been wanting to see him do on offense, and he did it in the context that matters most.
I care way more about Evan Mobley’s five -game, 21 points per game sample than I care about whatever Cade Cunningham’s stats were on the worst team in the NBA last year. I just do. Ethan Sands (29:00.
364) And I think that’s a good point because it also makes an understanding statement as to why Derek White is ahead of all of these other guys because he didn’t play, he didn’t have the stat line, but he was playing on a winning team and playing at a high level for that winning team, right? He’s reliable. He’s a guy that they could count on both offensively and defensively when it mattered. He did things against the Cavs that surprised everybody.
Right. He went off in one of those games as well. Then you also look at what he just did for team USA being able to play more and fit into a role better than Jason Tatum could have being the guy that comes being the last selection after he had the sub in for Kawhi Leonard.
I mean, all of these things play into it. Right. And I think you make a good point, Jimmy, winning and getting to the next stage is not only helpful for confidence, but also gives you more opportunity.
And I think when you talk about a Cavs team that, and we keep saying this and we’re gonna keep saying it until it doesn’t happen or it does happen. Eastern Conference semi -finals is not, that’s like the baseline. Eastern Conference finals, NBA finals.
That’s where this team wants to go. That’s where Donovan Mitchell wants to take this team. To get there, Evan Mobley is gonna have to play that 21 and 10 kind of way.
on a more consistent basis. He’s going to have to do that during the regular season. And I think, and I talked about this earlier, if he does that, he could get an attribute boost.
He could get all of these things when it comes to 2K. But in a broader sense, he’s going to help the Cavs win more ball games if he plays to that caliber rather than what we saw for a majority of the season last year. Jimmy Watkins (30:51.
721) I think he almost becomes like a victim of his own success because the spotlight on a player, on a core player of a team that is one of the last eight teams left in the league is just way brighter than it is for some of these other guys. Cade Cunningham wasting away in Detroit. De ‘Jonte Murray.
on the perennial eight seed Atlanta Hawks, like in the play -in tournament every year. Congratulations. Now he’s on the Pelicans.
I’m interested to see how he looks on the Pelicans. Franz Wagner, like the Orlando Magic making the playoffs last year is a huge success story in and of itself. And whatever happens after that, kind of icing on the cake, right? Like Scotty Barnes is on like like every year we’re doing, are the Raptors tanking? Are they not? Like what’s going on here? Like they have some interesting players.
Scotty Barnes is. A guy who is putting up numbers, but again, you’re winning 35 games or something. So like, what are we doing here? But I just feel like we’re not paying as much attention to those guys flaws because we’re not paying attention as much attention to their games because their games don’t matter.
Evan Mobley on the other hand is playing consequential basketball where by the way, the opponents are much better equipped to expose your flaws and we’re watching more closely. Particularly at your flaws because again as I said people don’t watch defense the same way they watch offense Most people’s Evan Mobley opinion is man. He’s a little clunky when he gets the ball doesn’t he? The dude was top three a defensive player his sex that’s player there his second season in the league That’s we need to be talking way more about that We need to be talking way more about that defense is half the game and we don’t treat it that way with Evan Mobley because of the way we watch basketball and like because of The Cavs are good, and they’re good but not good enough, so we have to pick at their flaws and figure out how can they get there.
Where these other teams are just bad, so we don’t have to actually critically think about them yet, honestly. Ethan Sands (32:52.814) I don’t think it’s just Evan Mobley, right? think when it comes to, it’s not sexy, right? Defense isn’t sexy.
Well, some players who play defense make it sexy, but like being able to be a ballhawk, be able to play like such lockdown defense isn’t sexy. You have to do the nitty gritty things. You have to body up.
You have to do all these things while offense, you think about the beautiful game, which I got from you, Jimmy. That’s one of your..
. sayings, Paul George, Kyrie Irving, those guys have beautiful games, right? But when you talk about guys like Evan Mobley, who is better known for defense, that kind of gets washed down because everybody’s, like you said, looking at the ball. You’re not looking at who’s guarding the ball.
You’re looking at if the ball is going in the hoop or not. And unfortunately, there’s other players on the Cavs that are like that, that don’t get the same love. Isaac Okoro is one of those guys.
He’s kind of gotten a mixed reaction from a lot of fans. We’ve had people on subtext that will go to bat for him, ride or die for him. But there are also people that are like, I could go without another Isaac Okoro season where he shoots 25 % from three point range during the during the playoffs, right? Then you have people like Isaac or like Dean Wade, who, I mean, his defense, he was top.
three in defensive writing for players that played 50 or more games during last year’s season and his defense Isolation grades have improved every single year in 2020 He was a D minus 2021 also still D minus 2022. He was an A minus 2023 a minus last year 2024 He was an A when it comes to isolation defense, right? That is something that People need to quantify, need to understand, need to look at because everybody’s like, why is Dean Wade getting minutes? He scores five points a game. why is he getting more minutes? He doesn’t actually do anything on the offensive end of the ball.
Sorry to tell you, Jimmy’s been trying to say it the entire time, defense is half the game and Dean Wade is one of the best defenders in the entire league. He might not be one of the flashier players on the offensive end. He might hit one, two, three pointers.
Maybe he’ll go for. Ethan Sands (35:17.518) 20 points in the fourth quarter and defeat the Boston Souths again.
Who knows? But what we do know is he’s going to be able to guard whoever the best player is on the other side, right? When it comes to, Cade Cunningham, Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, you want guys like Dean Wade to be on the floor. Paolo Bencaro again, Dean Wade not being there for the Orlando Magic Series. We talked about it yesterday.
It makes it so much more difficult to get away with mistakes because you don’t have somebody that can eliminate mistakes, especially with Jared Allen being out for a majority of that series or a good portion of that series as well. So Jimmy, just think like what you’re saying means a whole makes a whole lot of sense when it comes about how defense is not something that people look for or like, unless you are like really into the game. because offense wins, offense is what the game is now pushed towards, right? They changed the rules to help the offensive player.
So I think it’s just something that we’re going to have to monitor going forward and see if Evan Mobley can both continue to be a defensive player of the year candidate while improving his offensive game. Because sometimes being that good on defense can make you fatigued on the offensive end, but we’re going to see if his sizzle reels that he’s been posting online can translate to the NBA floor. What do you think about how both sides of the floor are extremely important when it comes to Evan Mobley this next season? Jimmy Watkins (37:01.
801) I’m just thinking, I’m just looking at this list again. I may not answer that question. I’m just rolling through the list.
On this topic though, like Derek White at 44, this is an interesting calves exercise, thought exercise we’re gonna do here. Derek White versus Darius Garland. If we’re talking about like, who’s got, if you’re like, he’s in his bag kind of.
hoop watcher. In 10 years, Darius Garland’s 10 -minute YouTube career highlights will be vastly superior to Derek White’s. Derek White’s going to do lot of straightforward ball handling around screens, making the right pass at the right time, keeping the ball moving, catch and shoot threes, attacking mismatches.
Derek White’s not going to go tween, tween behind the back, step back. three in your eye for the most part. He’s a good three -point shooter on the move.
can do stuff off the dribble. But like his ball handling is just not as flashy as Darius Garland’s. But I think I would take Derek White over Darius Garland.
particularly for this Cavs team right now. Like what is Darius Garland’s a more creative passer? Is he a better three -point shooter? I don’t know. He’s a more versatile scorer.
But Derek White is a top of the line elite perimeter defender. The exact kind of guy that you need to pair next to a high usage guard like Donovan Mitchell to ease their burden on defense and minimize your attack points when you’re on defense on the perimeter. I think that’s that would be an interesting, like if you’re in subtext right now, I’d be interested to see what the split is.
if, you know, Darius Garland for Derek White straight up. I don’t think either of these teams would actually do it in real life. They would both say no.
But I’d be interested to see how Cavs fans feel about that. me your opinions on that in the text. And then Lowry Markkinen is interesting because he used to play for the Cavs.
He’s 40th on the list, by the way. think we’re technically doing 50 through 41, but he’s in this range as well. He’s above Evan Mobley because he’s been an all -MBA level scorer on the Utah Jazz who, you know, starred every year.
Jimmy Watkins (39:23.675) in playoff contention and then at the trade deadline, I’m like, now we’re trying to tank and then trade like three of the best role players every year. Him versus Evan Moby is a fascinating conversation because Lowry Markkinen is, I would say, passable defensively and like elite as an offensive, like just can fit in so many ways.
You can see as a number one option, he can do it in Utah. Again, to what end? I’m not sure, but he can do it. He can, if you have one, two other players that need the ball, he can space the floor around them, be a pick and pop guy, post up mismatches.
Like he’s such a versatile offensive player. How do you weigh that against Evan Mobley’s top not like elite of the elite. This guy’s going to make double digit all defensive teams.
That’s what we’re talking about with Evan Mobley versus it’s. kind of clunky when he has the ball, can’t shoot. He’s a good passer.
He’s a good passer, but he’s not always as decisive as you want him to be because he’s not super comfortable in the NBA environment with the ball in his hands yet. Particularly when playing next to Jared Allen. I’m trying to remove that from our conversation right now because that has been a whole other podcast.
It will be a whole other podcast in the future as well. That’s another interesting comparison. Ethan Sands (40:50.
99) Jimmy, think what you talk about first for your little calves exercise, Derek White and Darius Garland, I think it’s interesting, right? Because I feel like calves fans are gonna say something along the lines of Derek White’s still 6 ‘4, he’s probably still too short for our back court, whatever. But I think right now, and I was wrestling with myself while you were talking about that and trying to figure out what I would say, but I think, I’m still very high on the idea of a backcourt that’s consisting of Donovan Mitchell and Max Streus, right? And figuring out the small forward position and getting someone to fulfill that role and all those different things if the Cavs decide to go that way. But I also do understand what you’re saying, putting Donovan at the one, Derek White at the two and still having Max Streus at the three because the issue right now in the backcourt is that they’re not too small on offense, they’re too small on defense.
And Derek White can play bigger than his size entails being six foot four on the defensive end of the ball. And I think that would be something that as you mentioned, as a point of attack perimeter defender, he could definitely take the spot of somebody like Isaac Okoro and all those different things. Again, this is just hypothetical.
Right? This is just for fun. We’re just trying to put things together. But I still do think that that’s a good comparison.
It’s a good realization of what the Cavs are looking for, how they would put things together. Do I still think 6465 as Shooting Garden, Small Forward would bring some arguments from our subtexters, from our listeners? Yeah, because everybody wants somebody that’s 6 ‘6 and above. I remember Jaylen Tyson came out in 6 ‘6′′, with no shoes on, 6 ‘7′′, with shoes on, and everybody wanted to fight.
So I just think it’s interesting to figure out what the desire is for the fan base, but also what would actually work. And I think Donovan Mitchell and Derek White in a backcourt, when it comes to the defensive aspect of the ball, would pan out nicely. One, because you have Derek White as the point of attack defender, allowing Donovan Mitchell to use his IQ to read the passing lanes.
Ethan Sands (43:10.766) while Max Drew still matching his up with small forwards. And then you have the two front court big men of Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, who we know to be defensive stoppers.
So I think that is a good line up defensively, even with Max Drew’s being a little bit undersized, right? But the other thing that you mentioned, and I don’t want to act like we can’t see the rest of the top 100 list. We can’t see a majority of it as it’s still coming out, but The list that we’re talking about does go down to 1431 right now for the 2K top 100. And like you mentioned, Lowy Marketing is 40.
And then Jaren Jackson Jr., Jamal Murray, Christoph Prozingis, Chet Hongren, Damar DeRozan, Drew Holliday, Lonzo Ball, Carl Anthony Towns, and Pascal Siakko round out this list. I think for me, all of those names make sense for over Evan Mobley.
The biggest competition would be the one that you said Lowry Markkinen. But I think Evan Mobley still has room to grow offensively to be like both like those guys and all of these guys that are on this list can also play defense maybe outside of Lonzo Ball. Or sorry, that’s probably Lamello.
I keep saying Lonzo, it’s definitely Lamello at ranked number 33 on this list. And I just wanted to also point out, right, because we’re talking about this 50 to 41 list and the 40 to 31 list, comparing Drew, or not Drew, Derek White to Darius Garland, Darius Garland is 75th on this list. So that’s 31 slots behind Derek White.
That’s what the NBA is saying, like, is what they compare them to. So I just think Jimmy Watkins (45:07.241) Yeah, but it’s what, like four overall points? What’s Darius, an 82 overall? So like after one of the worst years of Darius’ career and Derek White playing for the best team in basketball, probably the best role player in the league last year, the timing is part of it too.
Ethan Sands (45:09.966) Yeah, - Yep, he’s 82 - Ethan Sands (45:24.558) 100%.
And I think it’s just going to be interesting to see how these numbers change throughout the year. And if Evan Mobley can take that jump offensively, and then we’ll have a conversation of if he’s competing with the guys in the 40 to 31 range, like we talked about, because we also have been saying the defense is not going to be a question. It’s whether or not he’s going to do what he needs to offensively to maintain that kind of comparison.
But Jimmy, I think I want to wrap up. this podcast there. So that’ll be the wrap up for this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast.
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